Question for Hskwarrior

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hskwarrior,

 Hi, I was google browsing n’ happened to come across this information from the Bullshido website about the Green Grass Monk and Choy Lee Fut.  I thought you’d find this interesting as I see you're into the history and all.

“Ok, there’s been a lot of myth and mistake here regarding CLF. CLF was founded in 1836 by Chan Heung in King Mui Village, Toisan County, Guandong province. Chan Heung intitially learned Nan Sil Lum Hung Men Kuen from his uncle Chan Yuen Woo from the age of 8. Chan learned rapidly, and in his early teens his uncle sent him to train with his Sihing, Li Yao San. Li Yao San was the founder of the Li Gar system, one of the 5 families of southern Shaolin. Over the course of 10 years Chan learned the entire Li Gar system. Li then sent him out to find Choy Fook, AKA the green grass monk. After eventually persuading Choy to take him on as a student, Chan learned northern shaolin and Lohan Qigong from him.
In 1836 Chan returned to King Mui and opened up his school, the Hung Sing school (from this point referred to as Chan Hung Sing lineage). One of Chan Heung’s top students, Jeong Yim was sent to Futsan to run a Choy Li Fut school there. Jeong’s system evolved, placing great emphasis on long arm power. This line is now referred to as Jeong Hung Sing. One of Jeong’s descendents, Tam Sam, established a school in Kwongchow, but later moved to Hong Kong. Here he met and befriended the Northern Shaolin Master Ku Yeo Cheung (Wing Lam’s Sigung). This led to an exchange of ideas and students which led to the development of the Bak Sing Lineage (also known as Bak Sing Fut Gar).
It would be innacurrate to say that CLF is reliant on expansive circular techniques. Indeed, as has already been mentioned, a stabbing, linear leopard fist punch is a hallmark of the style. It does express full extension more than Hung Gar, and the footwork is more agile and dynamic, but the two are clearly related. Close range techniques are emphasised just as much as the long (if not more) and sticky hands is a fundamental part of training.”

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LMAO…who the heck wrote that? :eek:

I really don’t want to get into that too much. I’ll just point out some errors i’ve found in it tho.

    [B]Chan Heung intitially learned Nan Sil Lum Hung Men Kuen from his uncle Chan Yuen Woo from the age of 8[/B]
- This is something I've never heard before in my life. Secondly, Hung Men wasn't created until after the Temple's destruction. (I know he learned from Chan Yuen Wu. Hung Men Kuen? (First it was Hung Kuen then it turned into Fut Gar Kuen, which is it?)
    [B]In 1836 Chan returned to King Mui and opened up his school, the Hung Sing school (from this point referred to as Chan Hung Sing lineage)[/B].
- Chan Hung Sing? Really? Chan Hung Sing and Jeung Hung Sing? Really? LMAO!!! (to clarify something.... Although they're pronounced the same they are different. Chan Heung's [I]"Hung Sing"[/I]:[SIZE="4"][/SIZE] = [B]Great Sage[/B] and Jeung Hung Sing's "[I]Hung Sing[/I]" [SIZE="4"][/SIZE] = [B]Hung Victory[/B].
    [B]Li then sent him out to find Choy Fook, AKA the green grass monk.[/B]
- Let's not go there. LOL
    [B]One of Chan Heung's top students, Jeong Yim was sent to Futsan to run a Choy Li Fut school there. Jeong's system evolved, placing great emphasis on long arm power. This line is now referred to as Jeong Hung Sing[/B].
- The key to this is knowing who actually sent Jeung Hung Sing to Fut San. It was the Green Grass Monk ( Not Choy Fook) who sent him there in 1841 (Not 1867). The incident of him taking over a chan fam guys school happened closer to 1875. Here he took down the chan fam guys school name and replaced it with his own.

I’m still tripping off of the Chan Hung Sing thing. LOL

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There is one thing i’ve kept quiet about but i do find interesting and feel it needs more research. But i’m afraid that may meet a dead end.

Choy Lee Fut may have a connection to three of the five Hung Mun ancestors. First, monk Ching Cho (Green Grass Monk) held the second ancestor position taught Fut Gar Kuen/Fut Jeung Kuen.

Li Sik Hoi, the fifth of the Five Hung Mun ancestors is said to have passed on Lee Gar to Lee Yau San.

The first of the five Hung Mun ancestors was Choy Dak Jung. Just like his four hung brothers he too changed his name. He changed his name to Chan Yuen. This is where i get curious to Chan Heung’s uncle “Chan Yuen Wu”. I wonder if they were one and the same person as both are said to have come from shaolin.

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Frank:

I have always read & heard that Lay Yau San was the founder of Lay (Lee/Li) Gar.

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I have always read & heard that Lay Yau San was the founder of Lay (Lee/Li) Gar.

That may be true as well. but i know i’ve read somewhere that Lee Yau San sort of EVOLVED Li Gar from where Li Sik Hoi left off.

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Just because they share the same surname doesn’t mean their kung fu is related.

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It’s hard enough figuring out what happened from RELIABLE sources. You think a random post on Bullshido is going to clarify anything?

“Grandmaster… what should I do now?”

“Go on Bullshido.com, and tell them the truth about us…”

:eek::rolleyes:

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Just because they share the same surname doesn’t mean their kung fu is related.

true. but doesn’t mean they’re not either.

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Well that is true of anything and can be said for the good part of CLF history as well but unless anyone can piece the time lines of their lifes and show real proof that he learned from him or that they were ever associated together I am gonna go with Lay Yau San creating Lay Gar as that has been generally recognized across the martial arts world.

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i’m less worried about Lee Yau San and more wanting to know if Chan Yuen and Chan Yuen Wu would have been the same person.

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While it would probably difficult to find out why the question? All we know is Chan Yuen Wu first taught Chan Heung and is far as the style I have heard it all but it was some form of Southern Siu Lum.

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you’re asking me why i want to know about this?

  1. Personally I find it interesting the a style may have three of the five Hung Mun founders/shaolin monks as the ancestors to the system.

  2. Knowing if Chan Yuen and Chan Yuen Wu were one and the same i’d find interesting because it could explain how Chan Heung knew of Ching Cho to be able to send him over to complete his training. It may show the network of people they dealt with in that period.

For example, if its really true that Chan Heung was a member of the Hung Mun in southern China he’d be under Monk Ching Cho who covered by Canton and Guangxi. he would have known about. Ching Cho’s triad lodge was the largest and most feared in those days.

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Chan Heung was never a Hung Mun member, but he supported their activities throughout his life time.

His connection to the Hung Mun was through his old class mate Chan Sung-Nin (Chen Song-Nian in pinyin) who led the Sun Hui Tian-Di-Hui Hung Mun Army and laid siege to the town of Kong Mun for 60 days in 1854, Chan Heung secretly supported this failed rebellion. He also helped to train the soldiers of various Tai Ping Rebellion Armies, such as the ones under the leadership of Fung Wun-San and Fung was a student of Lung Zi-Choi, one of the earliest disciples of Chan Heung.

This information came from a historian from the Sun Hui Museum and was written up in the local newspaper, The Kong Mun Daily, a few years back:

http://www.jtlib.net/news/20091113/n08367408.html

Chan Yuen and Chan Yuen Wu are two different people, the character for “Yuen” in their name is written in two different ways.

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[QUOTE=extrajoseph;1084054]He also helped to train the soldiers of various Tai Ping Rebellion Armies[/QUOTE]
choy lee fut = christian kung fu for jesus

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and WHERE did you get the Chinese Characters for the Chan Yuen I am talking about? How were you able to make that comparison? i NEVER posted his characters on this thread.

Chan Heung was never a Hung Mun member, but he supported their activities throughout his life time.

Support means what? Is it just as simple as saying “Oh, yeah, I totally support what they are doing?” or is it going out and battling with the Hung Mun, training their fighters, participating in the fighting?

If Chan Heung stayed in king mui and just mentioned he supports what they were doing then No, he wasn’t a member. BUT, if he trained Hung Mun fighters or participated in any of their activities he was a Hung Kwun which i’ve read he was thought to be a Hung Kwun or Red Pole by some chan family based articles,

If Chan Heung supported them and taught their members gung fu, he was part of them. Especially in the Government’s eyes. AND! I wouldn’t put too much credence in that article and believe NOTHING from them about the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. PERIOD.

““”” LMAO!!!

“”“”:

“Chen Shiang-Zu Shu, CHEN Yuan-care propagation of Buddhism is "Hung Buddhist Fist” under the tutelage of Zhaoqing Qing Yun Temple Zen stick alone. According to Cai Lifo successor to explain, Hong Buddha boxing is the "Freemason Buddhist Fist"

Hung Mun Fut Ga Kuen! HMMMMM…LOL… Chan Yuen and Hung Mun Fut Gar Kuen. LOLOL.

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Im on the fence on this one. Its too hard to tell if Chan Heung was a official member of the Hung Mun or not. He possessed Hung Mun related material, hand signals, and supported the Green Grass Monks lodge and cause but never joined the Hung Mun? Chan Heungs Hung Sing same () was even in reference to Hung Wu ()! (Walks away scratching his head)

If he wasnt referring to Hung Wu then who was this Great Sage? Confuscious? LOL. Yet, his alter isnt set up like one of a Hung Mun member so maybe he wasnt. Still, if he was indeed training hung fighters, then he too was an enemy of the Qing and would have had his head chopped off.

However, id be honored in a big way if Chan Heung was a Hung brother.
The Green Grass Monks lodge was mentioned twice in that article. Also, the members of the red turban revolt of the 1850s were members of Ching Chos lodge as well.

Finally, EJ, you said that Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Yuen were not the same people because their characters were different. I never posted the characters So i dont know how you could make that distinction. For all you know it could be him.

That article also states Jeung Hung Sing opened his Kwoon in 1851. however, it states Chan Heung sent him there, which is confusing because most sources found on the web claims Chan Heung sent him to Fut San in or around 1867. Fut San knows that it was Ching Cho who went him there.

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This is great. Thanks to you both for your comments.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1084109]Im on the fence on this one. Its too hard to tell if Chan Heung was a official member of the Hung Mun or not. He possessed Hung Mun related material, hand signals, and supported the Green Grass Monks lodge and cause but never joined the Hung Mun? Chan Heungs Hung Sing same () was even in reference to Hung Wu ()! (Walks away scratching his head)

If he wasnt referring to Hung Wu then who was this Great Sage? Confuscious? LOL. Yet, his alter isnt set up like one of a Hung Mun member so maybe he wasnt. Still, if he was indeed training hung fighters, then he too was an enemy of the Qing and would have had his head chopped off.
[/QUOTE]

Hung Wu () was referring to Zhu Yuan-Zhang 1328-1398) the founder of Ming Dynasty, not Hung Mun.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/70071.htm

It helps you to know a bit about Chinese names and Chinese history when you write your book on the history of CLF. LOL.

Finally, EJ, you said that Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Yuen were not the same people because their characters were different. I never posted the characters So i dont know how you could make that distinction. For all you know it could be him.

Then please do quote the Chinese characters, then we’ll all know.

That article also states Jeung Hung Sing opened his Kwoon in 1851. however, it states Chan Heung sent him there, which is confusing because most sources found on the web claims Chan Heung sent him to Fut San in or around 1867. Fut San knows that it was Ching Cho who went him there.

No, it is not confusing because Jeung Yim was sent there by Chan Heung to replace the teacher who was there before and went blind. Futsan CLF history is made up by Chan Kam-Fai and his Sifu, they are bent to promote Jeung Yim as the co-founder of CLF for some strange reasons, yet no reliable evidence are given to the claim. If you are going to write that same history, make sure you don’t make the same mistakes.

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It helps you to know a bit about Chinese names and Chinese history when you write your book on the history of CLF. LOL.

yeah it also helps to tell the truth. LOL right EJ? the truth will set you free LMAO

[SIZE=“3”][/SIZE]

Hung Wu () was referring to Zhu Yuan-Zhang 1328-1398) the founder of Ming Dynasty, not Hung Mun.

Hung Wu is VERY connected to the Hung Mun.

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Then please do quote the Chinese characters, then we’ll all know.

You instantly denied its possibility without seeing the characters. I’ll let you stew in it. LOL

No, it is not confusing because Jeung Yim was sent there by Chan Heung to replace the teacher who was there before and went blind.

When did he go blind? What year did chan heung send him there? LMAO!!!

Futsan CLF history is made up by Chan Kam-Fai and his Sifu, they are bent to promote Jeung Yim as the co-founder of CLF for some strange reasons, yet no reliable evidence are given to the claim.

Chan Kam Fai and his sifu are HUNG SING. you’re just upset they started researching their history and you didn’t like what they discovered. LMAO. Its not like they are from some rival system or something. although my info didn’t come from them, why shouldn’t anyone believe them?

There’s no way in hell a hung sing person is going to believe chan yiu chi’s account of us.

The ONLY thing i’m believing from the Chan family history about Jeung Hung Sing is the fact that the two of them were in Hong Kong between 1864-1867, on the run from the government. I previously thought they met in King Mui but it was Hong Kong because it was even documented by Chan Heung that Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San to re-open is own schoo in 1867l. so, keep your chan yiu chi hung sing history. nice gung fu, history not so nice.

[SIZE=“4”] [/SIZE]:D:D:D

Which Year was it joseph? 1851 or 1875? And if he was following Chan Heung at that time why did he take down the chan fam name and put his own up? LMAO LMAO LMAO x 10!