Brilliant post. Agree with all of it.
This statement is competely ridiculous on every level.
A) If you are in a one on one situation, and tackle someone, unless they have groundfighting training, you are basically going to beat them down from that point on - even if you don’t know much, you are on top, where you can effectively strike them and they cannot effectively strike you.
B) Tackling someone involves going down with them, but it doesn’t require you to /stay/ down with them. It’s not difficult, nor does it require a lot of skill, to tackle someone, then stand up and put the boots to them. I’ve seen this happen in barfights on numerous occasions. Also, tackling someone, standing up, and running gives you a much better chance to get away than turning your back on someone trying to punch you.
C) If you’re /not/ in a one on one situation, tackling /still/ isn’t necessarily the wrong answer - if someone starts swinging on you in the middle of a club, it’s a much better option to tackle them and hold them until the bouncers get there to pull you apart, rather than try to block and back up and hope nothing gets through your guard. If you’re surrounded by people trying to hit you, ideally you want to clinch with one, throw, and try to escape through the “hole” that creates, but sometimes due to positioning ducking and tackling to create the same effect is necessary.
D) Regardless of whether it’s “the stupidest thing you can do in a fight” or not, people do it, so not “taking it seriously” enough to train for it is idiotic.
If I’m fighting a groundfighter I would agree. But you’re trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter. Weak connection.
No, I’m saying that once you get on top of someone on the ground, you don’t /need/ to be a trained groundfighter to hold them down and hit them - it isn’t very difficult. Getting out from under someone without getting your teeth fed to you is what requires training.
That was a joke. It’s called “sense of humour.”
Stick to what you’re good at.
That’s fine, there are that are more effective ways to get your point across to me.
If you choose to ignore someone pointing out that your hypothesis is wrong because they don’t offer an alternate hypothesis, that’s your problem. I’m here to discuss and debate, not cater to your particular preferences about how argument is conducted.
You’re right about that, Knifefighter. I have yet to engage in any full-contact weapons training. But either I misunderstand you, or you misunderstand me. The situation I posited was one in which one guy, standing up, has a spear. The other two guys are rolling on the ground. One of those guys is his enemy, the other is not. The soldier standing up of course, will not intentionally kill his fellow soldier, but things happen.
Let me emphasize again: I have had no full-contact weapons training. However, I know enough of Physics, and the interaction of Pointy Things vs. Fleshy Things, to know that someone rolling on the ground can be EASILY stabbed. Especially with a 7-foot spear.
I AM NOT SAYING that no one in a battlefield-situation goes to the ground. What I AM SAYING is that surviving protracted groundfighting (any groundfighting that can be measured in increments of 30 seconds) is a matter of SHEER LUCK. Your skill in groundfighting WOULD NOT keep you from being shot by a stray arrow.
Moreover, Horses will not think to themselves “Whoa there, those two are grappling. And they’re doing a mighty fine job of it too! Better respect their distance and NOT trample them into the dirt.”
Totally agree.
Sorry, your examples are laughable. Taking a fight to ground unless you know what you’re doing is really stupid. I don’t think being football player or highschool wrestler means you know what you’re doing.
No, I’m saying that once you get on top of someone on the ground, you don’t /need/ to be a trained groundfighter to hold them down and hit them - it isn’t very difficult. Getting out from under someone without getting your teeth fed to you is what requires training.
First of all, you have to get some serious position to be able to punch someone as you describe. That requires knowing what you are doing.
Secondly, even if you get position how effective is punching someone when you are kneeling over them. Does that ever result in a knockout? Not that I’ve seen. When you are on the ground all the other guy has to do is cover up and you’re hitting the side of his head with no power.
Thirdly, you are on top of the guy throwing punches. You better hope to god that its a one on one match in a ring of some sort. Otherwise you might be eating a beer bottle or chair on the back of your head…night, night.
If you choose to ignore someone pointing out that your hypothesis is wrong because they don’t offer an alternate hypothesis, that’s your problem.
Well you critiqued my hypothesis of why CMA doesn’t have groundfighting but you didn’t really get very far. I asked that you provide an alternative and you said you couldn’t because you don’t know much about Chinese martial arts. OK…then how am I supposed to take your criticism seriously. 
I’m here to discuss and debate
Discussion and debate are forms of communication. Key portion being “commune.” It takes at least two to communicate. But as I said maybe you are more interested in rhetoric and posturing rather than serious discussion.
, not cater to your particular preferences about how argument is conducted.
My sole purpose here is really not to argue. If I disagree with something I’ll call it out but I’m really here to exchange ideas with other martial artists. If debate leads to good exchange of ideas than I’m cool. However, if people are abrasive or insulting to me then I’d just assume put them on my ignore list and not deal. Your ideas have to be really, really good for me to put up with bull$hit attitude…lkfmdc anyone?;).
Fu-Pow Vs. FatherDog
Based off a certain Monty Python sketch. I’ll leave it to you to figure out who is who. 
M = Man Looking for Argument
A = Arguer
M: Oh look, this isn’t an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn’t. It’s just contradiction.
A: No it isn’t.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn’t.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn’t; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn’t just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn’t.
M: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn’t!
No, you don’t.
That requires knowing what you are doing.
No, it doesn’t.
Secondly, even if you get position how effective is punching someone when you are kneeling over them. Does that ever result in a knockout? Not that I’ve seen. When you are on the ground all the other guy has to do is cover up and you’re hitting the side of his head with no power.
Thank you for making it clear you have no clue about punches on the ground. Nothing you’ve just said is accurate, at all.
Well you critiqued my hypothesis of why CMA doesn’t have groundfighting but you didn’t really get very far.
You said that CMA doesn’t have groundfighting because it’s “for the battlefield”. I noted that two of the three most prominent groundfighting arts were specifically developed for and on the battlefield. You… complained about me not proving an alternative hypothesis. Good debating skills!
My sole purpose here is really not to argue. If I disagree with something I’ll call it out but I’m really here to exchange ideas with other martial artists. If debate leads to good exchange of ideas than I’m cool. However, if people are abrasive or insulting to me then I’d just assume put them on my ignore list and not deal. Your ideas have to be really, really good for me to put up with bull$hit attitude…lkfmdc anyone?;).
If you’re so fragile you refuse to discuss an issue with someone that doesn’t meet your prissy standards of politeness, that’s your lookout. I’m not going to modify my usual mode of communication just because you’re a wuss.
Time to change the channel :rolleyes:
You know, I really don’t understand why some people are so angry. Are they’re lives so miserable that they have to exact some sort of self-righteous vengeance on people posting on internet message boards that they’ve never met?
Life is too short by my measure.
TCMA and groundfighting
If it wasn’t in there before it should be in there now (period).
If so, only on a basic level unless the student intends to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.
Technically, you only need basic level punching and kicking, too, unless you intend to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.
As a martial artists your training should focus 100% on beating a trained, skilled apponant. It should be up to date.
what if a student never plans on entering competition?
would you train them differently than you would a student who plans to make a competative fighting carreer?
so say when you train a student who is going to compete, you say: when your are taken down, here are some options. then show according training for particular situations.
what for the non competitor will you say, grab his ballz. pull and squeez. if you are in a dangerous lock, bite a mouth size chunk out. as well as the competative maneuvers.
just a curious.
i know real life you can bite and pull ballz. those things i think about. and you dont need any training for some stuff, just the will to keep your cool and act.
i mean seriously if i had to i would bite a chunk out of you that you would remember till the day you die. if my mouth was close to you in any way, arm, leg, face, buttocks. doesnt matter. animal.
so i think in a real situation you have many more options open. kneecaps, top of foot. small joint manipulation.
im not making any excuses im just seriously curious. do competative fighters not even consider the nasty things you can do to someone when in a lock?
would you let go if i bit of your thumb? or a chunk of your forarm or leg?
just wondering.
flame on i guess :rolleyes:
Well, think about it. If you are biting, you probably aren’t in the dominant position. So, unless the guy just freaks out and lets you up, he’s going to beat the holy hell out of you for biting him once he gets over the initial shock.
Seriously, if I got bit, and was missing a chunk of flesh, I would maim that muther****er.
so, are we going to define the finer points of biting? :rolleyes:
who here that trains traditional martial arts trains their bite grip?
how about claws? who trains how to scratch? lethally?
on to hair pulling, well, most fighters competiive or otherwise keep their hair short. It is smart to do so.
moving right along…
I think that because of the nature of street fighting that not knowing how to defend a variety of trips, clinch, takedown, and not knowing at least a couple things to do on the ground if this happens can be a bad thing. Imagine getting taken down and then HIS buddies start stomping you because you cannot get out. If you at least can sort of deal with this, you might avoid some of that beating but you should be very prepared for someone to shoot and to avoid, counter it.
A number of years ago I trained with a very strong friend of mine and he took me down without any knowledge of anything and set up for a ground and pound that would have hurt a lot. It is easy to get leverage on somebody when they are beneath you and yes, somebody takes fifteen shots to the head that way they are going to sleep.
In seriousness, a knife coming at you tops the risks next to a gun or grenade launcher or atomic warhead. You train to no matter what get out of the way of that knife…a punch, a kick, a tackle, or a trip can lead to much worse and so you should have solid defense that can be implemented immediately and effectively with maximium attention and intent.
All I have seen MMA do is take the basic attacks of punch, kick, and takedown, and put them into one person so that no longer will someone just box you or try to wrestle you but may do any combination of the above. It is still imperative to keep distance and set up defenses/offenses that can negate the opponents natural advantages or abilities.
Oh yeah, biting???
Sure and then bring some hep c, a, b, AIDS, syphillis, whatever. Maybe you would bite at some point but that would not be something I would do.
Watch some early UFC’s when hair pulling was allowed: Royce Gracie used it quite effectively.
I think training one’s hands to deliver powerful blows with the finger tips or a claw is very important. It should be a given that you keep your most practical and immediate tools sharp and well oiled.
ya i would pound a guy for biting me too. suppose your not in a position to pound the biter? and what about pulling your ballz? or thumbing your eye.
everyone trains bite grip every day. provided they chew food. i could take a finger easy.
i mean all the stuff that is illegal is illegal for a reason right? what do you do if you get a finger in your eye? just tough it out? doubt it. what if i bite your wrist and you bleed to death?
i know this is all silly, but its reall too. and possible. but ive notices sport fighters often dismiss things like this. saying that its not possible or they are too good to get in a position like that. or that it doesnt happen in a sport fight.
i knew this guy once. his girlfriend was getting harrased by some guy, so he stepped up and tried to fight the guy. he started getting his ass kicked and it did go down. after some rolling around and punching the other guy started screaming. ends up my friend bit the dudes ear off. after he rolled away and got up he spit it at him. then the table turned very very quickly. he beat that guy so bad. now he is in prison for a long time. but he won, and that guy will never forget that.
thats the kind of stuff im talking about. im not saying this is a scenario anyone wants or will be in but i saw this sh!t happen with my own eyes. it was a dirty street fight on capital hill in seattle wa, no refs, no walls. concrete and blood.
i bet he woulda said if some guy bit his ear off he would beat his ass, but in reality he went into shock and got worked.
just sayin.
course my buddy was a freaking psycho…i guess that accounts for some rage but still.
dont know if he got any diseases or not. maybe. i dont think he cared at the time though.