What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
81

They can certainly TRY. :wink:

Work on your reading comprehension. I didn’t say it wasn’t created “for the battlefield” (although frankly I have my doubts about that), I said that being created “for the battlefield” is unlikely to be why it doesn’t have groundfighting, since most of the major groundfighting arts WERE created “for the battlefield”.

Then what’s YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don’t have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

82

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Then what’s YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don’t have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

THere’s a couple theories one COULD put forward, but they tend to work against basic critical thinking skills. Except for the last one. Have fun!

  1. Chinese arts were never used for battlefield combat. The Chinese never even had an army. They just hired Mongolians to do all the fighting for them. Afraid the people would discover this, the Chinese eventually just let the Mongolians control the country for them, thus starting the Yuan dynasty. The people of China tried to devise martial arts for themselves, but lacking a military, they didn’t know how to REALLY fight, so their martial arts lacked ground grappling. :rolleyes:

  2. Chinese Martial Arts WERE used in the battlefield, but when firearms were introduced to China, the Westerners pretty much crapped all over Chinese society. The martial artists lost faith in their hard-earned Kung Fu (that part is actually true,) and wanted revenge on the Westerners. So all of them, ALL OF THEM, met and decided to stop teaching ground-grappling. That way, if a Chinese person ever taught a Westerner MA, their MA would be deficient because it lacked ground-fighting. Oh… and then they killed all the students they had ALREADY taught ground-grappling to. And then they took ground-grappling out of ALL MA training manuals.

  3. CMA/Kung Fu/Classical Wushu WAS a battlefield art. Fighting on a battlefield has MANY perils. If you took an enemy down and rolled around in a relatively small area, your chances of being trampled, shot by an arrow, or stabbed increased signifigantly. Take this example-

A soldier in the Imperial Army finds one of his fellow soldiers rolling around on the ground with one of the Rebels. Now, he’ll bring honor to himself if he kills an enemy, and the enemy is RIGHT THERE, and vulnerable. So is his fellow soldier. But his army outnumbers the rebels greatly! Therefore, your arithmetic will look like this-
1 Spear + 1 Rebel Scum + 1 Fellow Soldier = 1 dead Rebel Scum.

Conversely, if you happen to be said Rebel, and your Rebellion numbers 500, you’ll likely crap your pants at the sight of thousands upon THOUSANDS of Imperial Soldiers. Then your idiot commander says something stupid like “DO NOT RETREAT! MEET THE IMPERIALS HEAD-ON.” Well, there goes your day. And your life. Then you see one of your idiot fellow rebels rolling on the ground. You have a spear. Your arithmetic will look like this.
1 spear + 1 Imperialist Pig-Dog Scum + 1 Fellow Rebel = 1 dead Imperial Soldier
After all, in the face of overwhelming and better-equipped odds, your fellow Rebel will die anyway. Why not take as many of the Imperials down as possible before you die yourself?

83

And if you’ve never trained to prevent tackles, the odds of them succeeding are far greater than the odds of them failing. And if you’ve never trained any ground fighting, once they succeed, you’re pretty much boned.

Then what’s YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don’t have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

I don’t know much about the history of Chinese martial arts or culture, so any theory I have would only be guesswork.

Whether or not I present a synthesis, however, has no bearing on the accuracy of my analysis.

84

lol too easy :smiley:

85

Yes, you have a very limited understanding if you think you can somehow be an effective self-taught MMA fighter. Going to a few seminars will definitely give you a very limited understanding.

86

LOL @ all of the people here who have never fought full contact with weapons (nor probably ever even seen actual full-on weapons fighting) and pontificate about not going to the ground in battle without realizing how often these things end up on the ground, even when no one wants them to.

87

BTW, not going to the ground didn’t have anything to do with an army’s soldiers having a greater likelyhood of getting killed. If this was the case, an army with superior numbers could simply have its ground-trained troops take their lesser numbered opponents to the ground and kill them with the extra troops that would still be standing and mobile.

The reason it was beneficial to remain standing was that this was the most efficient method for accomplishing battlefield strategies and tactics (i.e. maintaining line integrity, attacking flanks, troop deployment, etc)..

88

The part about the tackles is speculation on your part.

Are tackles something special or new? Not really. They’ve probably been a part of “fighting” as long as the “haymaker” has.

For example, Taiji teaches you how do deal with any forward energy and the strategy is usually to direct the force downward.

As for the groundfighting bit. Your asking that we assume that once one of these “highschool wrestlers” or “football players” is going to know what do once they have you on the ground.

Not likely unless they’ve specifcally trained for groundfighting or they happen to a be a particularly good highschool wrestler (knocking your 20% figure down to something much much lower.)

I don’t know much about the history of Chinese martial arts or culture, so any theory I have would only be guesswork.

Whether or not I present a synthesis, however, has no bearing on the accuracy of my analysis.

True, it doesn’t take away from the “validity” of your analysis.
However, if you are going to criticize someone else’s hypothesis (by analysis) then I say you should be prepared to offer an alternative one of your own. That’s just good manners. :wink:

89

I take it Fu-Pow never played football.

Most football players know how to hold people down and prevent them from moving. It’s trained all the time in loose-ball drills and many blocking drills. Watch any game closely and you’ll see that players are constantly holding each other down, most of the time without using their hands because that would be a penalty. Blocking and tackling is very much about positioning and body control, which is all wrestling is anyway.

If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he’ll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well. Football blocks usually involve lifting up the opponent (usually by gettig under his shoulder pads with your forearms) to off-balance him, which dissipates forward momentum and makes it easier to toss them aside and/or make them fall.

So, pretty much anyone who played any kind of organized football in the U.S. has had some takedown training.

Football players don’t train punching, either, but a forearm “shiver” can make you see stars.

90

Not to mention the fact that a 250 lb football player usually has pretty decent G&P, especially against someone who has no ground training.

91

No, “if you don’t train to deal with tackles you won’t have much chance of stopping one in real life” isn’t speculation.

As for the groundfighting bit. Your asking that we assume that once one of these “highschool wrestlers” or “football players” is going to know what do once they have you on the ground.

Not likely unless they’ve specifcally trained for groundfighting or they happen to a be a particularly good highschool wrestler (knocking your 20% figure down to something much much lower.)

No, it doesn’t take much training to hold down someone with no ground training and hit them in the face. If you’ve never trained groundfighting, you’re pretty much boned at that point.

True, it doesn’t take away from the “validity” of your analysis.
However, if you are going to criticize someone else’s hypothesis (by analysis) then I say you should be prepared to offer an alternative one of your own. That’s just good manners. :wink:

Well, really, I don’t particularly care what you consider good manners. If you present a hypothesis that’s obviously flawed, I’m going to point it out, whether I have an alternative or not.

92

Actually I did.

Most football players know how to hold people down and prevent them from moving. It’s trained all the time in loose-ball drills and many blocking drills. Watch any game closely and you’ll see that players are constantly holding each other down, most of the time without using their hands because that would be a penalty. Blocking and tackling is very much about positioning and body control, which is all wrestling is anyway.

So they can hold you on the ground. My point was that they’re not going to know what to do once they have you there as a BJJ player or wrestler would.

Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA.

If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he’ll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well. Football blocks usually involve lifting up the opponent (usually by gettig under his shoulder pads with your forearms) to off-balance him, which dissipates forward momentum and makes it easier to toss them aside and/or make them fall.

You don’t have your facts straight. Clipping is used by the offensive line to trip the incoming defensive line. The defensive line is applying the forward pressure, not the offense. So in order for someone to clip you it is you that must be applying the forward pressure.

The reason that you can’t really push a defensive lineman down as an offensive lineman is that they are not trying to tackle you, they are just trying to get around you. When a defensive lineman does get through and goes after a back, for example, you do see the backs push the defensive linemans’ head down.

Furthermore, “pushing” your opponent’s force down is only one viable option in terms of Taiji and is the “typical” one. Any direction that does not directly oppose the incoming force is in accord with Taiji principles ie Peng (up), Lu (back) and An (down). Could also deflect to the side. So when you see an offensive lineman pushing the defensive lineman up he is actually doing a crude version of Peng…:smiley:

So, pretty much anyone who played any kind of organized football in the U.S. has had some takedown training.

Football players don’t train punching, either, but a forearm “shiver” can make you see stars.

Its funny to me that you guys are trying to equate football skills with fighting skills. I’ve heard so many stories about macho football players getting pizowned by street fighters. Its a weak connection…I guess less weak than something like curling but I digress…:rolleyes:

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Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA.

This is not the strategy of CMA at all. Nobody sat down and said “hey what are we going to do about all these grapplers? I know, lets not go to the ground at all”.

The reason CMA have no ground strategy is due to the culture they come from. At that time, in that place, fighting was done standing up. There was no developed ground strategy available. If you want a clinch and ground grappling strategy then the smart and fast way is to cross train wrestling or judo with bjj alongside your kung fu.

Trying to find it all “hidden” in the 'fu is retarded. People who talk this way don’t train properly.

94

How much training does it take to beat someone senseless if you can sucessfully hold them down just using body-weight?

Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA.
Maybe. Depends on the situation. I certianly prefer to stay on my feet, but it’s not always my choice.

You don’t have your facts straight. Clipping is used by the offensive line to trip the incoming defensive line. The defensive line is applying the forward pressure, not the offense. So in order for someone to clip you it is you that must be applying the forward pressure.

Clipping is specifically a block from behind, at or below knee level. Doesn’t matter if it’s offensive or defensive.

You push on the guy’s head, and he’ll spin around and hit the back of your legs, much like a wrestler does when he misses a shoot and redirects the angle.

In fact, proper tackling is very similar to a proper shoot.

Its funny to me that you guys are trying to equate football skills with fighting skills. I’ve heard so many stories about macho football players getting pizowned by street fighters.

I’ll take a football player in a fight over a Taiji player anyday of the week.:wink:

95

A tackle is pretty much the stupidest thing you can do in a fight (unless maybe you are a groundfighter in a one-on-one situation) so I think most martial artists don’t take them seriously…nor should they.

No, it doesn’t take much training to hold down someone with no ground training and hit them in the face. If you’ve never trained groundfighting, you’re pretty much boned at that point.

If I’m fighting a groundfighter I would agree. But you’re trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter. Weak connection.

Well, really, I don’t particularly care what you consider good manners.

That was a joke. It’s called “sense of humour.”

If you present a hypothesis that’s obviously flawed, I’m going to point it out, whether I have an alternative or not.

That’s fine, there are that are more effective ways to get your point across to me.

But maybe that’s not you’re aim.

Maybe you’re just trying to look “right” and make me look “wrong.” Which is called posturing.

In which case, what’s the point? To impress these other guys on the forum?..That’s pretty pu$$y if you ask me.

FP

96

But you’re trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter.

Football players and ESPECIALLY highschool wrestlers are great at taking people down and ending up on top. From there it doesn’t take a genius to punch or knee or elbow for the win.

At the very least if you are taken down your standup will be negated and the fight will be a level playing field which the bigger guy will likely win due to weight and strength advantage.

This problem is simply corrected by training in wrestling and bjj.

97

I don’t want to go anywhere near any arguments about Football and its relationship to fighting but there is a saying, actually a TCMA saying, that more TCMA people should take to heart

“The technique (strategy) you neglect (ignore) will be your defeat”

TCMA has a lot of great material, but the refusal by many to look outside their school or tradition has stagnated a lot of it

98

I agree with a couple of assessments.

  1. Groundfighting, It’s not all hidden or within Chin Na.

This is true. CMA doesn’t for the most part address gground fighting in any manner whatsoever. It doesn’t train fr it, it doesn’t deal with it at all and often will just use some idea that Chin Na will help you when you are in the guard.

Absolute nonsense. Rule is, if you do not train for it, you are unprepared for most of it period. Wrestling and some form of groundfighting training will round out any traditionalist and to deny it is to ostrich on the issue.

2)there is such a thing as crossover skills, but only once again if they are properly trained in the correct environment for doing so. a football player cannot be assumed to know squat about fighting. They don’t train to fight. They can adapt there strength to function in a combat environment but it would involve a whole lotta different body mechanics.

I would take a big guy over a little guy based on size and strength alone.
I would take a skilled guy over and unskilled guy based on “knows what to do”.

I would also add, knowing throws does not equate to groundwork. That is a different skill set and is used to take something to the ground. Throwing skills have little to do with once you are there. Grappling skills are what you need once you are down there. CMA for the most part has zero grappling training and most cma purists have zero grappling skills. Grappling skills are found outside of cma. Throwing skills are there already, but again, you have to train that. It is not enough to say “we have that in our style in moves 37 through 49 of such and such a form”. This approach will get you choke the fug out and quickly.

If you want to learn grappling, then you must practice it plain and simple.
Not wanting to get takien down and GNP’d is not enough. You have to train for that. and you have to train for what happens when you get there. How do you keep a strong guard? how do you pass a guard? how do you get side dominance. how do you reverse? how do you mount and retain? all this is simply NOT available in traditional cma.

trad cma does indeed have a lot of stuff that is very useful for combat training in rbsd type stuff or competition type stuff, but it falls drastically short when it comes to out and out wrestling skills.

it is my experience that trad players don’t know what to do mechanically when they are held to the ground and locked.

99

The issue is balance. If your balance is good then you can stay on your feet.

Clipping is specifically a block from behind, at or below knee level. Doesn’t matter if it’s offensive or defensive.

My bad, you are right about the definition of clipping. However, what you described before:

If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he’ll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well.

This is a technique I learned on the offensive line. Basically, a defensive lineman rushes in and you drop towards his knees and turn your body sideways. You are basically cutting him off at the knees. I can’t remember if its legal or not.

You push on the guy’s head, and he’ll spin around and hit the back of your legs, much like a wrestler does when he misses a shoot and redirects the angle.
In fact, proper tackling is very similar to a proper shoot.

Hint: You don’t push on guys head and then just stand there. You direct his forward energy downward but you stay in front of him.

I’ll take a football player in a fight over a Taiji player anyday of the week.:wink:

Skilled Taiji vs football…I’d take Taiji anyday of the week. :cool:

100

Good point. However, there is also a tendency to spread oneself to thin by trying to learn too many things at once…the “jack of all trades” argument.

Personally, I would like to learn some basic groundfighting if only so I can get back to my feet. I see the value but unless I was going to enter a UFC type event I wouldn’t make groundfighting my main focus.

Should TCMA get over it’s bias against “going to the ground”? That’s a topic for another discussion.