What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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i might point out i dont condone ignorance of gound fighting techniques.

i fully respect the ground and support its training needs.

i just like to view every possiblilty. and thumbs in my eye, a bitten off finger, my ballz ripped or fingers broken can happen to me.

i dont sport fight, doubt i ever will. call my a pusseh if you want i dont care.

but when i think about a confrontation i never view it from a sport aspect. i view it from an aspect where the other guy will be trained in all styles and will impliment all sorts of “dirty” techniques. including biting, breaking, rending, poking tearing, submission, pounding, knifes, guns, etc…

but ill add, that i train for myself. to better learn who i am, for something to do, because i love it, so i can help others and share what i learn, and for self defense.

122

I train my students to have structure, coordinated movements that produce power and position.

Because of what I am doing we train against the grappler a lot. So when someone shoots and we capture the head, I say, “On the street, drive off the leg and crank the neck like this… in a tournament, ride it out and then set up knees. If you can’t knee, ride it out, look to strike the rib or just play from there.”

The training consists on keeping a barrier between you and the shooter, the position. Other training trains the coordinated power of driving off the foot.

It’s a matter of saying here’s a screwdrive and a hammer. What you do with them is up to you, the time, the place.

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Regarding “dirty” tactics

If you can bite me you could’ve head butted me long ago…

If you can pull my hair or poke my eye you could’ve punched me long ago.

I expect you to kick my balls. I expect you to do everything… can you?

124

thanks for the response about training ray.

as for biting i mean like, if someone has you in an arm lock using thier legs. i cant head butt a leg and get results, but i can bite it.

i mean isnt there a place for every tool? isnt biting a tool that has a place? even if its .000000000001% of a place its there right?

what if my opponent has a good defense against striking and he is on top of me. i try to hit him in the face but he deflects or blocks it or what not, but i can worm an arm up there, but not in the form of a punch, get my finger in that eye, or his nose. rip an ear…

dunno. just stuff i think about. im not trying to say these are probable or the answers to any situations, but i dont like to ignore any possiblity.

what do i do when a guy has his thumb over my eye and is putting pressure as i am on top of him and pounding. he goes into survival mode cause its on the street and has a finger in my eye.

i would roll the f away. and quicks.

125

My thinking is like this: if I’m good enough to get around all your defenses and lock your head with my legs, I’m good enough to sense the change in pressure, the feeling, which will indecate you’re going for a bite… I release the lock and then stomp on your head. I can do that because I have position on you. I have poistion on you because my overall game is better.

That’s why these last chance tactics are really that, the last failed attempt to do something to someone who has dominated the encounter.

126

continued because of call at work

My last “street” encouter happed at a bar a year ago… I was meeting an old friend.

This drunk guy grabbed my hands, after telling me about his wrestling prowless, and wouldn’t let go as he continued to tell me what he could do to me. I asked a few times politley until I said I’d give him 3 seconds to let go… I didn’t count. Seemed silly.

I broke his grips just by flexing the wrists/fists against his thumbs and put him in a headlock (I realise now I shouldn’t have done this, just esculated things, but…)… no sooner was he in the headlock I felt his right hand go up and over and for a second I thought, “This guy must’ve had some training” because I thought he was going to use his forearm as leverage to push off my neck. Nope. He was going for the eyes.

As soon as I felt the intention I pushed him off.

As soon as he regained his balance he threw a hay maker.

As soon as I saw the strike I stepped in with a left wave punch.

He turned and went straight down.

The bouncers came as I was helping him up and said I was walking him out, which I did, etc., ect. etc.

The lesson I learned was how good my punch was when it counted, when it was prepared for, just reactive. That was the best shot of my life.

But the lesson about the eye is in there too.

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A lot of these what do I do…

responses, such as fingers in eyes, etc., are much like going to a doctor and asking what to do once you have AIDS.

Prevention! Not a cure.

128

lol

ya. thanks for entertaining my curiosity.

129

To

To some degree I would agree with that statement. However, for self-defense, the reason most people want to learn martial arts in the first place, its better to stay on your feet.

So I would spend more time learning to stay and fight on your feet rather than working on the ground.

130

Better learn how to wrestle then. It is the art which best teaches takedown defence.

131

Then you haven’t seen much.

But if you are standing up in a group of people no one would dream of hitting you with that bottle or chair, right? Come on…

132

The same tired old song from folks who just have to believe there is a shortcut…:rolleyes:

133

haha, you dont read everything do you?

you apparently did not read every word i wrote or at least you cannot understand it. one or the other.

you dont know me at all.

"i might point out i dont condone ignorance of gound fighting techniques.

i fully respect the ground and support its training needs."

did you read where i said that? didnt think so.

your a brainiac arent you…:rolleyes:

further more, i put EVERY possiblity out there, all of them. and i feel if someone does not do that, then they are fooling themselves something fierce. did you see anywhere where i state anything to the effect that these techniques are shortcuts or the end all in fighting? NO, cause i didnt. because im not an idiot. but im smart enough to know they are a real possiblity and HAVE happened many many times in many many situations. ignore if you want. remane igrnorant. your choice.

134

Are you trying to be insulting?

But if you are standing up in a group of people no one would dream of hitting you with that bottle or chair, right? Come on…

That kind of misses the point. If you are stationary in one position doing the ol’ ground and pound you are totally vulnerable. At least on your feet you options, like running away for example.

135

People seem to be forgetting the most important part of groundfighting training here…

I have 5 years of wrestling behind me and 6 or so of BJJ.

Arguments about “what if,” aside, the question is not “who can I hold down,” but “who can hold ME down?”

The answer is "some percentage of the well trained grappling community, and not a big percentage of the population at large.

In a single or multiple opponent situation there is a strong possibility that I might fall. That I might be blindsided, or that I might trip over a chair or something. It happens to the best of us all.

I know how to fall, and I know how to GET UP, even when I’ve got a 300 lbs monster on top of me. And I know this because I’ve done it.

As Fatherdog pointed out, if you are stuck underneath somebody like that, you are in trouble. There’s no two ways about it.

The idea about groundfighting is not that the ground is necessarily the best thing to do…it is that with such training, you get to have a greater say in where the fight goes and remains.

Without it, somebody else might make that choice for you.

FYI, for the biters - doing that to get out of an armbar may be one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard. It’s possible the guy will scream and let go. It is more likely, IMO, that what they will do, is scream and reflexively stiffen up. Think about it. When placed in a situation where somebody does something a bit unexpected, that is a threat your body tenses up and goes on alert.

If you are trying to get out of an armbar and the fellow has it locked in well, and you bite to try and escape they may break your arm out of reflex.

Incidentally, if you were to bite me and I didn’t jump and let go, I would absolutely break your arm for doing it. Then I would probably break something else out of spite.

Lastly, if the biting is going to work, it’s going to work to create space - and if you don’t know how to take advantage of that space, you’re very rapidly going to find yourself back in a similar position - with a person who is now quite ****ed off and highly aware that you are a biter.

I’m not saying that biting doesn’t have a (limited) role in self-defense. I’m suggesting that like any “dirty trick,” you need to know how to take advantage of the conditions it creates. And that takes solid basics.

Unless, of course, that person is a giant ***** and decides to quit becuase you bit them :smiley:

136

The idea about groundfighting is not that the ground is necessarily the best thing to do…it is that with such training, you get to have a greater say in where the fight goes and remains.

Great point. I think the question is how much of your training time should be devoted to it?

My argument is that in a self-defense situation it is preferable to stay on your feet so that training to stay there is where the focus of training should be…as it is in most traditional asian arts.

For certain combat sports the situation is different. The probability that you will be taken down and have to engage in groundfighting is very high. If you are good at groundfighting its actually desirable to go there. Therefore, your training should reflect those realities.

Should TCMA players learn some groundfighting, yes absolutely. Should it become a focus of their training, no absolutely not, unless they intend to enter MMA type events. Stick to what you’re good at.

Another thing that MMA types with no TCMA experience need to realize is that players with good stances and root are not going to be easy to take down. Arts like Hung Ga for example, I believe were designed to deal with wrestlers. That’s why they emphasize short range techniques and low solid stances.
With good internal artists you’re going to have a hard time finding somewhere to push or grab onto, etc, etc.

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I’ve seen the point about low stances brought up before, but some grapplers on the board responded by saying a lower center of gravity made it easier to sweep. It must be a different kind of sweep than I’m thinking of (footsweep- i.e. a low circular “sweeping” kick designed to take someone’s feet out.) I have no idea since I’ve never done any sort of real grappling.

138

I read only too much of your nonsense. Half-hearted disclaimers aside, you go ahead and depend on biting people’s fingers. You’ll end up with what you deserve.:rolleyes:

139

Are you trying to be ignorant? If you’ve never seen someone held down and pounded into unconsciousness, then you haven’t seen too many altercations.

I think it is you who is missing the point. If you don’t see someone, then you are as vulnerable standing as on the ground if you are “stationary” for the one second it takes to swing that bottle. Your apparent ignorance of what can be done on the ground, should one have to, makes you think that “you are totally vulnerable” because you ‘imagine’ someone just laying motionless waiting for something bad to happen. People who have trained to fight on the ground, should you have to (and sooner or later you will), have trained to move on the ground, to control position and to give themselves every advantage there that they can. If you are fighting standing up and someone wants to blindside you and break a bottle over your head, there is a good chance they will. If you find yourself fighting more than one person, the likelihood you will end up off your feet is even greater, and if “running away” were an option you would be well advised to exercise it before the issue of standing up or on the ground even comes up.

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This is one of the worst assumptions of all, and one that people dwelling in the realm of ‘theory’ make all too often. You don’t stop a takedown attempt by being stationary, you do it by moving. “Low solid stances” may make for dramatic poses, but are not your best bet for takedown defense.