My favorite escape from the mount is to shrimp on my side, create a frame with my arms against their waist, then bump their lower back with my side-up knee. This usually forces them forward and creates a gap that allows you to pull your side-down leg up and into a half-guard.
From half-guard, I like to use the “old-school” to get back into a dominant position.
I trained for the ground, I’ve fought and finished fights from the ground but it was just raw imposing of my will. I am loving Gracie Jiu-jitsu. It is a beatiful style. I don’t agree with a lot of their “self defense (stand up)” stuff, but that has comrpised maybe 5% of the material so far. Everything on the ground has been beautiful. I only had one submission lock before. Now I have a few chokes and locks from the major positions.
There is definitely a science here, with filling space with your knee to inch up a bit and twist to load the hip before arm bars, etc. Lots of very important details that make a difference that I was too ignorant to recognize before. Joining this school at this time was the best thing I’ve ever done for myself martially.
Got my first stripe Fri. night. Wasn’t submitted once last night but forced a tap via triangle, arm bar, kamura and several chokes last night.
:eek:
mk the bjj noob
…knife… a total asshat…
KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it
:eek:
What the hell is the stripe all about?
[QUOTE=Fuzzly;713349]If I could afford it, and if there were a school around here, I would definately take up BJJ or JJ. I am training HFY, and while it does have groundfighting, it’s not the focus for my training at the moment. Actually, my training is pretty frustrating at this point (As it seems to have been for all my brothers who’ve been/are in this training).
It definately would be a fun and helpful experience, but alas, I have neither the time nor the money to pursue this further.[/QUOTE]
judo classes are usually cheap to take, and there may be one of those around.
I differentiate between groundfighting and ground grappling - what is your groundfighting composed of? is it mainly just striking from the ground in order to get yourself back to your feet?
I suggest you all wander over to mma.tv where you can circle jerk together and share in the bukkake. :rolleyes:
what a friggin dumb argument.
wrestling = useless for striking
MT= useless for wrestling
boxing= useless for graplling +kick skills
ergo, they are in and of themselves lacking and yet everyone is sniffing armpits about it and doing it in a kungfu forum which is formatted for kf players from traditional schools, to wushu performance types etc etc.
I’m surprised some of you just can’t resist coming and posting your troll stuff in this forum when there is one made available for you.
your arguments for mma are pretty ridiculous in this environment when it comes down to it.
kind of tiring to, so anyway, please feel free to continue to jag off all over the dead horse you brought in with you, I don’t have time for this argument anymore other than to say, it is a stupid one and irrelevant here.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713507]I suggest you all wander over to mma.tv where you can circle jerk together and share in the bukkake. :rolleyes:
what a friggin dumb argument.
wrestling = useless for striking
MT= useless for wrestling
boxing= useless for graplling +kick skills
ergo, they are in and of themselves lacking and yet everyone is sniffing armpits about it and doing it in a kungfu forum which is formatted for kf players from traditional schools, to wushu performance types etc etc.
I’m surprised some of you just can’t resist coming and posting your troll stuff in this forum when there is one made available for you.
your arguments for mma are pretty ridiculous in this environment when it comes down to it.
kind of tiring to, so anyway, please feel free to continue to jag off all over the dead horse you brought in with you, I don’t have time for this argument anymore other than to say, it is a stupid one and irrelevant here.[/QUOTE]
Translation = “My lack of ground knowledge has just been exposed and I’m pi$$ed.”
Lots of pwnage going on today.
Nah, I dont think its that, KF. This is beyond dead horse stuff, and what he brought up are valid points. Thai Kickboxing, Boxing and Wrestling are all very narrow scoped disciplines when faced with their weaknesses, they are just the comfortable choices for the MMA community because they know they work well, so they are “high percentage”. I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;713520]Nah, I dont think its that, KF. This is beyond dead horse stuff, and what he brought up are valid points. Thai Kickboxing, Boxing and Wrestling are all very narrow scoped disciplines when faced with their weaknesses, they are just the comfortable choices for the MMA community because they know they work well, so they are “high percentage”. I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.[/QUOTE]
you could learn those things. Personally, I would love to see someone doing shuai chiao, san shou and bjj enter mma. As a lot of these arts are currently trained though, you just won’t see it happen. There are still a lot of JJJ (since you mentioned that style) that don’t spar. same with kung fu. if you are going to compete in the venue, you must train for it. BUT, I think one of the first things people will realize is that they will be using their basics even they fight, just like you see the current mma fighters doing. Look at san shou. To the untrained eye, it’s just kickboxing and wrestling. Ever wonder why it looks the same?
The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;713525]The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?[/QUOTE]
Well, the problem is at least 3 folded.
TCMA schools generally has a network of hierarchy in the TCMA community and it also froster an environment of hierarchy within the system/school. This more or less means that a set curriculum equals system/school identity. It’s almost like all Bishops must answer to the Pope. You have to be Catheralic to be a Catheralic priest. So it is quite hard to do or change things as one pleases. Now, you do have the occassional renegades who go off on his/her own (ie Bruce Lee is one of them). That often means another all out political battle before anything is settled. Most of the time TCMA schools rather not rock the boat and you will get an a la carte type of training.
In the west where the middle class holds the power of the market. They are the paying customers that make or break a school. It really doesn’t matter what you are teaching. You can teach Modern Wushu and claim mastery of CMA but in reality you can’t even fight your way out of a wet paper bag! Guess what, you will still have a profitable school. This is why McDojo and Mckwoon is everywhere. It’s because little Johnny’s soccer mom is far too busy babysitting him herself so she decide to pay at a low cost for you to entertain Johnny. Oh make sure you don’t do anything stupid that cause even one single injury or you will definitely lost a paying customer and gain a lawsuit. Some smart TCMA schools have no choice but to adapt to “market” demands.
Pop culture and media (including the internet) portrayal create a twisted understanding and fantasy of TCMA. People (mostly middle class) simply want movie-fu. Then when they find out that you actually have to train and possibly have to fight (high risk of injuries involved). They just quit. They don’t need TCMA to remind them of the harsh reality. They want TCMA to be a sancturary to shield them from the ever losing battle of mundane existance. This is what the western Shaolin temple revival fab is about.
Now, when you have a “smart Sifu” out there taking it easy, trying to make a easy buck. Well, you’ve got a making of a Mckwoon.
TCMA is more prone to this problem because of the use of form training as an integral part of its methodology. It can be rectified if a school decides to become drill base rather than staying form base but it would mean really hard work and higher risk of losing the business altogether.
Traditional Kung Fu and traditional Ju Jitsu are very mush alike in approach when it comes to drilling techniques and even in methodology. But Ju Jitsu kept evolving into Aikido, Judo, BJJ, etc. Innovative paradigm got developed overtime. TKF in general and for the most part kept pacing back and forth with the same frame of mind. Sure we have the so-called “internal” arts revolution but it’s more or less a dead end street mainly due to politics plus it doesn’t shake off the old mindset. So…
In reality, TCMA has no one to blame but itself and it’s exponents.
Regards
Mantis108
That makes me sad to hear, its likely true… 
However, again, just read up on successful fighters and their regimens, apply something similar to your material, and viola, you start down the road of liberating your art from that garbage. CMA are mostly passing to non chinese within the next generation in the states, and we have the option of not keeping the politics that go with them, or at least not all of them to be realistic.
Formula:
Take some movements from your forms, not a combo but just like one or two moves and begin to drill them from lead hand, back hand, to the side, stepping back, stepping in, stepping to the side with a partner, as well as on a heavy bag.
Evolve this into working said techiques against vectors of force, or against various types of attacks.
Pick another movement and do the same.
Add a bunch of drills to get people used to contact, pain and breathing while moving.
Its pretty simple to me, but I guess maybe people dont want it that bad?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;713513]Translation = “My lack of ground knowledge has just been exposed and I’m pi$$ed.”
Lots of pwnage going on today.[/QUOTE]
so, you’re a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?
My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That’s not the issue at hand. is it?
so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set? I don’t
what about MT? is that got every range covered? I don’t think so.
how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?
the only thing getting pwned is you for not being validated in you continuing vitriol, bile and generally moot arguments.
wow, there is some pwnage goin round today isnt there.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;713525]The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?[/QUOTE]
funny you should mention that - one just opened up here. Their motto is “learn to box without getting hit”. They teach you all of the techniques, footowrk, etc. but you never spar. They do have qualified guys that will spar if you desire to, but sparring is not part of the training.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713560]so, you’re a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?[/quote]
Actually, KF has fought professionally, not that that makes any particular difference.
My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That’s not the issue at hand. is it?
Well, you entered this thread with this post - http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=712684&postcount=17
In which you stated that if he (a cma practitioner) wasn’t taught to defend himself on the ground, there’s something wrong with what he was taught. Since you’re a CMA practitioner, presumably you were taught how to defend yourself on the ground, so if you make statements about groundwork that indicate a fundamental lack of knowledge and presence of misconceptions, that largely invalidates your argument.
so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set? I don’t
what about MT? is that got every range covered? I don’t think so.
how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?
KF never claimed any of the above. No one claimed any of the above. We all know that wrestling doesn’t possess submissions and is limited in bottom escapes, MT has no groundwork, boxing has no kicks and minimal clinching, and BJJ has no striking and minimal takedowns. That is why we crosstrain.
You, on the other hand, appear to be claiming that CMA “teaches you to defend yourself on the ground”, which is something that I’ve never seen any good evidence of. And everything you’ve said, in this thread and elsewhere, about groundfighting is the sort of statement that would come from someone who knows nothing about fighting on the ground.
So, congratulations on arguing about things we haven’t said and continuing to talk about things you don’t know about, I guess. Way to go with the “pwnage.”
How did we get on the topic of being well rounded? that was never the point, really. we were saying that kung fu did not adequately prepare us for what we experienced when we started grappling. THAT is the issue.
No, boxing and MT don’t prepare you for the ground either, but you don’t hear them telling you that it does, which you DO hear from a lot of CMA guys.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;713520] I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.[/QUOTE]
LOL @ less work… do you know how much work MMA fighters do to prepare for their fights?
The real reason fighters don’t use the other styles is because they would simply end up with the same functional techniques they are already using from wrestling, MT, judo, Sambo, BJJ and boxing… no reason to waste time re-inventing the wheel.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;713550]
Formula:
Take some movements from your forms, not a combo but just like one or two moves and begin to drill them from lead hand, back hand, to the side, stepping back, stepping in, stepping to the side with a partner, as well as on a heavy bag.
Evolve this into working said techiques against vectors of force, or against various types of attacks.
Pick another movement and do the same.
Add a bunch of drills to get people used to contact, pain and breathing while moving.[/QUOTE]
Hate to break it to you but it’s already being done… it’s call MMA.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713560]so, you’re a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?[/QUOTE]
Right now, pretty much amateur. Have done a little pro stuff in the past… not sure how that is relevent though.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713560]My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That’s not the issue at hand. is it?[/QUOTE]
It is when you are giving ground advice.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713560]so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set?
what about MT? is that got every range covered?
how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?[/QUOTE]
None of these are functional all around systems, but each is top notch in it’s own specialty. That’s what makes MMA so powerful… it takes top-notch specialty disciplines and combines them into a single “killer app” that is more than the sum of it’s parts.
And the reason each of these disciplines is so well suited to MMA fighting is that each has been tested and evolved in trial-by-fire competitive venues that each system emphasizes.