…and fall out of boxing rings.
I can fall out of a boxing ring like a CHAMP!
Reno’s not that far away. Maybe you’ll get your chance one of these days.
Ive got an Americana waiting too!
:eek:
Ok, but if you get it on my left shoulder, I’ll tap early. That’s the one I had surgery on.
i agree, to play the ground effectively you have to train there and quite frankly, as noted, cma doesn’t deal with that range very much. However, that doesn’t mean that basic tactics can’t be worked.
All ranges should be worked and in cma, it is natural that stand up and clinch are gonna be the priority. Still, grabs, holds, releases and tactics to deal with tight situations such as the ground presents shouldn’t be overlooked by any system. Not necessarily the primary focus, but even a small reckoning is better than none.
Myself and my training partner(s) give due regard to all ranges. It’s changed a few attitudes for sure.
I wont use americanas if you dont use triangle chokes?
:mad:
Nah…just remember that you have to get me there first 
I’ve got a Poison Tree Frog choke waiting for both of you. Suckas.
I liek a good B movie strangle myself.
you know, hands around the throat and neck, arms straight out, and make a lot of gurgling noises occasionally try to bite the skull while uttering “braaaaainnnns”
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;712684] feed the stitch side of the forearm? attempt to control the wrists? play the angle of attack to cut it off and reverse? make your own attack?[/QUOTE]
Another example of KF guys thinking that KF teaches them what to do on the ground. At the very least, those things will be worthless and at the worst they will set you up to lose if you are in certain positions on the ground.
[QUOTE=tjmitch;712594]The thing I love about bjj is that it teaches what to do when you are losing a fight. Badly. If a guy has your back in a ‘real’ fight nothing I learned in my 10-12 years of ‘cma’ showed me exactly what to do…then made me do it over and over again every week until I stopped letting guys take my back. Nothing I learned in my cma school showed me exactly what to do if I found myself flat on my back with a guy sitting on my chest throwing punches.[/QUOTE]
Great observation. Losing a fight often means losing it on the ground. A person who gets dominated standing, will often end up on the ground with the other person striking or kicking from a standing position. Knowing what to do when down can save you and even reverse the situation.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;712955]Another example of KF guys thinking that KF teaches them what to do on the ground. At the very least, those things will be worthless and at the worst they will set you up to lose if you are in certain positions on the ground.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with this. I learned to fight pretty well standing up with my kung fu, but once I got into MMA I figured out pretty quickly that wrestling/ground fighting are different beasts altogether.
I think sensitivity training (like push hands) does crossover somewhat, but it won’t get you out of a scarf hold…
yeah sure, i throw out a couple of examples and it is assumed that that’s all there is. ridiculous. I’ve wrestled since high school, Im not the greatest, but i can play ground game at an ok level.
so, in reference to a ground and pound being done on you, what’s your solution knife? mk? take it? give him your side? or would you cover and shrimp, seek a reversal?
come on, help me out here. I’m assuming you must be friggin geniuses if your turfing a few very simple tactics. :rolleyes:
I agree also. Even though we did grapple at my old cma school, my buddy and I schooled them all after we bought a copy of “the fighter’s notebook” and began training the techniques we saw in it. We rooled regularly and worked what was in the book. We got to a point where we could submit them all with ease.
After I left the school and started bjj, I really had no defense once they back mounted me either - nothing I had learned in longfist really prepared me for that. Nothing I learned in longfist prepared me for the triangle choke, either.
It’s easy to say “cover and shrimp”, “seek a reversal”, but when you don’t know any, you can’t do that, can you? you can struggle, but you just end up tiring yourself out and getting tapped. that’s no different than taking a newbie at striking and saying “just hit him in the throat” - it’s easier said than done.
pfft. gimme a break 7. how is your statement any different? who says you know? what makes you know more than anyone else.
everything is easy to say, it’s a little much to give a detailed explanation in a textual format that someone can take and start practicing tomorrow.
there is an assumption that 1) people know what Im talking about when I say shrimp etc and 2) there is an assumption that seeking a reversal is to be interpreted as a number of techniques to get out of a ground and pound.
If that assumption can’t be made with the likes of knife who comes across as king of the cage with his attitudes or mk the bjj noob who now knows more than kungfu guys do then what are we atlking about here? how about a heel hook and a hip thrust with a cross body push?
what kind of detail are we talking here? does it bother people that kf people can get the mechanic of it? wtf? gimme a break. a kf guy can get down with it in a short time and with a bit of tightening up will have good stand up to begin with. It comes down to adding ranges and working them period.
the assumption on the part of knife seems to be that all kungfu is just performance wushu and frankly, this is what makes him read like a total asshat in these regards.
There isn’t a lot to adapting to the simplicity of sport fighting. It is a short learning curve and guys can get good really fast and all they need is the will to fight and learn a few extra ways of doing things.
in judo, a guy would need to improve his standup, in GR, same thing, in BJJ again, same thing. MMA guys look outside of just BJJ, or just MT or just boxing and they even look beyond that for what is useful and what they can use.
If they just write off kungfu, then frankly, they are stupid. KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it. Because it doesn’t focus on sport or it doesn’t focus on speciifc and small areas doesn’t mean squat.
Now , Im not down with bagging on mma because I see value in it mainly because it does cross train and it deals with all ranges at the same time. You don’t find this in MT, you don’t find it in wrestling and you don’t find it in boxing. that’s why its mixed. But do these guys bag on wrestling as an individual sport? no? why not? It’s not effective in punching and has zero punching? should we assume that because it lacks this it is not realistic? how about boxing? what does a boxer do when he gets kicked about the quads a few times? he’s got nothing in his training to address that. what does a MT guy do in his training that gives him a tactic against a rear naked? Nothing. So can we assume these arts are shyte because they in and of themselves don’t deal with all ranges?
nuff said.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713298]pfft. gimme a break 7. how is your statement any different? who says you know? what makes you know more than anyone else.[/quote]
I think you missed my point. I’m not saying I knew more than anyone else. I’m saying when I started bjj, I was the one who didn’t know those things. Kung fu did not teach them to me. My statement is not supposed to be different - it’s a agreeance with mk and kf.
there is an assumption that 1) people know what Im talking about when I say shrimp etc and 2) there is an assumption that seeking a reversal is to be interpreted as a number of techniques to get out of a ground and pound.
that’s really not an assumption you can safely make.
If that assumption can’t be made with the likes of knife who comes across as king of the cage with his attitudes or mk the bjj noob who now knows more than kungfu guys do then what are we atlking about here? how about a heel hook and a hip thrust with a cross body push?
What we (or at least I) am saying is that prior to grappling training we (I) DID NOT know those things.
what kind of detail are we talking here? does it bother people that kf people can get the mechanic of it? wtf? gimme a break. a kf guy can get down with it in a short time and with a bit of tightening up will have good stand up to begin with. It comes down to adding ranges and working them period.
and therein lies the problem, doesn’t it? Not all schools do that. Mine did not, nor did MK’s. at least not with the frequency and knowledge base of a grappling school. that’s no different than wanting to learn stiking in a bjj class…
If they just write off kungfu, then frankly, they are stupid. KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it. Because it doesn’t focus on sport or it doesn’t focus on speciifc and small areas doesn’t mean squat.
I haven’t seen any of us here say we have written off kung fu as useless, on this thread or any other.
Now , Im not down with bagging on mma because I see value in it mainly because it does cross train and it deals with all ranges at the same time. You don’t find this in MT, you don’t find it in wrestling and you don’t find it in boxing. that’s why its mixed. But do these guys bag on wrestling as an individual sport? no? why not? It’s not effective in punching and has zero punching? should we assume that because it lacks this it is not realistic? how about boxing? what does a boxer do when he gets kicked about the quads a few times? he’s got nothing in his training to address that. what does a MT guy do in his training that gives him a tactic against a rear naked? Nothing. So can we assume these arts are shyte because they in and of themselves don’t deal with all ranges?
the KF argument is about more than just not dealing with all ranges. It’s also about training methods that allow them to fight effectively in various venues.
Stop the presses everyone! Kung Lek got all butt hurt. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713289]so, in reference to a ground and pound being done on you, what’s your solution knife? mk? take it? give him your side? or would you cover and shrimp, seek a reversal?[/QUOTE]
Um… simple solution… guard 'em up.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;713289]come on, help me out here. I’m assuming you must be friggin geniuses if your turfing a few very simple tactics. [/QUOTE]
Some of those “simple tactics” will get you smoked if you are mounted.
If I could afford it, and if there were a school around here, I would definately take up BJJ or JJ. I am training HFY, and while it does have groundfighting, it’s not the focus for my training at the moment. Actually, my training is pretty frustrating at this point (As it seems to have been for all my brothers who’ve been/are in this training).
It definately would be a fun and helpful experience, but alas, I have neither the time nor the money to pursue this further.
shoot, i might as well plug for my coworkers.
www.islandmartialarts.com for all your bjj and mma needs.
also check out ww.mma.tv it the the worlds biggest mma discussion.