Originally posted by FatherDog
Actually, many, if not most, of the skilled and accomplished BJJ/MMA/etc fighters I’ve met and talked to are soft-spoken, easy-going, and completely non-confrontational outside of the ring.
Of course I am referring to mindset in the ring. Timid fighters don’t do well as a rule. What is interesting is just what you mentioned - the more accomplished the fighter, generally the more easy-going they are outside the ring. The people that talk a lot of trash, tend to be at the lower end of the skills range.
Not sure what the cause and effect is there, but I suppose it has a good deal to do with the fact that anyone that has been around for a while knows that no matter how good you think you are, someone will always show you that you have a long way to go.
Originally posted by FatherDog
[B]That aside… the way you seem to be coming across here is “Kung-fu practitioners are usually very skilled, and when they lose it’s usually because they don’t have mental focus. MMA/grappler types are usually less skilled in technique than kung fu types, and when they win it’s because they’re rough and tumble types who would probably win without any training.”
This may not be what you intend, but it’s the way you’re coming across, and it demeans the large amounts of skill, precision, and self-control that becoming a skilled grappler requires, as well as being entirely untrue. [/B]
That’s why I really hate these religion discussions sometimes. I deliberately chose my words (as I tend to), using “often” and “frequently”, rather than the words you inferred like “usually.”
I am simply saying that this is often the case. In fact, I thought I clarified this:
Originally posted by BrentCareyKung fu practitioners are often technically superior. Are they always superior? Of course not. However, often they are faster, more versatile, have a broader range of techniques, superior balance, etc. The opposite is often true just as well.
Often girls are taller than boys, but often boys are taller than girls. I could further say that when a girl is taller than boys her age, it is frequently because they are all about 10-12 years old. Is this always the case? No, but it is “frequently” true.
I am just saying that there are cases where a KF practitioner has superior (or at least equal) technical skill, but is defeated by a practitioner of another style, primarily due to a lack of readiness. This is one type of incident that accounts for the apparent disparity between kung fu and “other” styles. In my experience, this is frequently the case - not always, perhaps not even usually, but at least frequently.
Let me provide some examples. From time to time, I invite other schools from other styles to come and spar with us. Sometimes they come, and sometimes they decline for whatever reason.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. One of my students (about 6 months of training) was sparring with a local BJJ student (about 8 months of training). They face off, shuffle around a little bit, then the BJJ guy rushes in, head down, at my student’s mid-section. My student raises his stance, kind of shuffles back, folds over the top of his opponent, and collapses. A few seconds later he was folded up like a pretzel. Several similar incidents followed.
So, I convened with my student.
Me: “What stance were you in when your opponent hit you?”
Him: “Um, I’m not sure.”
Me: “OK, what stance were you in before he hit you?”
Him: “Horse stance - fighting posture.”
Me: “Right. So how did he attack you?”
Him: “He rushed me at my mid-section.”
Me: “Yes. Was his head up or down?”
Him: “Down I think.”
Me: “Where were his hands?”
Him: “Kind of out in front grabbing at me.”
Me: “Did we practice defenses against this kind of attack?”
Him: “Yes sir, several.”
Me: “OK, what stance should you have moved into?”
Him: “A solid bow stance would have been good.”
Me: “Did you do that?”
Him: “I don’t know.”
Me: “No, you didn’t. What else could you have done?”
Him: “Well, since his head was down. I could have easily kicked his face hard if this had been real life. I can’t actually do that here can I?”
Me: “No, but you could have let him know that he could have been kicked, by kicking the shoulder or chest lightly. OK, let’s say you decided not to do that, or didn’t think of it in time. What could you have done as he got closer?”
Him: “Deflected his arms and head to the side and downward while stepping to the side like we practiced.”
Me: “What about the follow-up throw we practiced?”
Him: “Oh, that too.”
Me: “Where were these techniques a few minutes ago?”
Him: “I don’t know. I just panicked I guess.”
Me: “Exactly. Let’s offer full pads to our guest so that you don’t need to worry about hurting him so much. Then, let’s try this again.”
We do just that. The BJJ guy wears some head and groin protection and they go back to it. This time, my student knows a little bit what to expect, but more importantly, is fully prepared to act this time. He easily defeats his opponent several times.
Then, a much larger, more experienced BJJ student asks to spar with my student. At this point, I think it was a matter of pride, and he came on a bit intensely. So, they spar. The same thing happens. My student is like a deer in the headlights. He is completely intimidated by this guy, and takes a beating.
So, we convene again and have a similar discussion. I ask the BJJ instructor if he would be willing to let me spar with his student so that I could demonstrate some things for my student. He agrees and his student agrees.
I am careful to use only techniques that I have already shown my student, and I use them in exactly the manner taught. I defeat the BJJ student several times. Since I weigh about 30 lbs less than my student, he is heartened by this. I explain that the only difference between this opponent and the last is in the mind. In fact, this second larger opponent was a bit slower than the previous one.
Well, my student went back and got beaten several more times. He pretty much froze up every time. Sorry, not a fairy tale ending, but this isn’t Karate Kid.
However, another student of mine (about 2-3 months of training) asked to have a go at it. Everyone agreed, so they went to it.
He was untouchable. He went out there ready to win. He was focused and aggressive, but patient and relaxed. He only had a few techniques at his disposal, but used them to their fullest. He was not intimidated, and met his opponent with a purpose.
Having seen this, my first student asked to have another go at it, but the BJJ school got upset and left before he could have another try. They have never been back, which is too bad, because I think it was beneficial for everyone involved.
This is not an isolated incident. I have seen this same phenomenon over and over.
My intent is not to demean the value of anyone’s training. I have great respect for anyone who is accomplished at any style. I am simply saying that people make a logical error when they make assumptions about the cause of victory or defeat being attributable solely to the person’s style.
Technical strength builds confidence, and more often than not, it is the confidence, and not the skills themselves that decide victory. Sure, skills are extremely useful. In fact, this is where I think CMA (in general) excels - we have an infinite number of skills available to us. Skills do no good, however, if you are not mentally prepared to use them with an appropriate amount of resolve. This is where CMA (in general) is lacking.
I could say the opposite about BJJ (for example). Compared to CMA, BJJ is very narrow and lacking in breadth of skills. However, this narrower focus allows practitioners to become more skilled in their area. This breeds confidence and contributes to a focused mindset during a confrontation.
(Before anyone comes unglued here. I am saying this ONLY compared to CMA. Any knowledgeable person must concede the kung fu is much broader than BJJ. I am not claiming superiority in merit, just in breadth. OK?)
KF practitioners often have a hard time making up their mind what to do until it is too late, even though they are technically skilled.
It hurts the reputation of CMA every time a practitioner steps into the ring, who may be very skilled and accomplished, but with very little competitive experience. What do you think is going to happen? Of course, the person that trains for this type of contest is going to win.
When I was training hand-to-hand for special ops and law enforcement, I made a point of teaching kung fu, and not other styles. Most of the other instructors involved were BJJ and TKD types. My crusade was to prove that, when properly trained, kung fu would hold its own in the real world.
Well, it did. It was very successful and earned the respect of my peers from other styles. It worked because I narrowed the focus, simplified the strategies, and taught only a small subset of kung fu. We then practiced executing on these techniques with extreme resolve. It helped that my students had firm reason to believe that they would need to use these techniques some day to save their lives. Nothing like a captive audience.
Getting close to my 10,000 character limit on this post, so I’ll cut it short at this point.
Let me end by saying this. The style X vs. style Y discussion has been gone over and over and over on this (and every other) forum. It will never be resolved. A much more useful discussion is the relative merits and weaknesses of style X when compared to style Y. There is some of that going on here, but it hurts the progress of such discussions when people get defensive.
-Brent
