value of forms/katas

I’ve noticed a few things creeping in again. First of all, I think crane stance isn’t taught as a stance to fight for extended periods under, it is specialised, and very good for quick snapping kicks. It should be quickly assumed, attacked from and move into a more stable, defensive position.

Second, i keep hearing people say, if you drop into horse stance, you will be kicked in the balls (not too put too fine a point in it). The horse stance is designed for stability from the side, so guess where your opponent should be when you take this stance? To your side, of course, not like when you assume it and practice techniques in class, this is to provide a nice platform that allows techniques to be practiced, while strengthening the legs, this is not its combat application! This will prevent almost any attack being thrown at your groin, as it isn’t even visible in the horse stance! If a stance is in a combat art, and it leaves a vital striking point (esp the groin!) open, you have the application wrong.

Thank you for pointing that out, Shendon.

I have been taught from my teacher that you first must learn the form, perfectly, then you are taught the applications of the form. This is vital if one is to understand the how and why of the movements and principles and applications. It seems to be working pretty well for me. I think that alot depends on how well, and how much you practice. It also vital to have a teacher that can do the the forms and knows applications of the forms, and is willing to show you . From what I understand this is how the Military still teaches and so there must be value in this approach. A good example is www.rovere.com vidio (Body gaurd knife form) and the second (applications)tape. In the first tape you learn the form and the second you learn the applications.
(Just remember when all else fails do what you have been taught). ha ha .
Hope this helps. INFINOO

[This message has been edited by INFINOO (edited 04-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by INFINOO (edited 04-24-2000).]

HuangKaiVun
I’d say you’ve never met anyone with good kung-fu.
This is because you have had poor instruction. Don’t judge others by your own ability, just because you cannot use your forms for fighting don’t assume others cannot. I’ve met many good KF’rs that can indeed use the techniques from their forms.

[This message has been edited by Monkey (edited 04-24-2000).]

You’re right: my instructors have been poor. So have been the ones I’ve seen.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t use my forms, thank God!

at least we agree on something

THE FORMS MAKE YOU A FIGHTER, I CHALLENGE ANY ONE TO TEST THEMSELVES. FOR TWO WEEKS HAVE ONE FRIEND TRAIN WITH JUST THE BAG OR CIRCUIT TRAINING SIMPLE KICK PUNCH STUFF,AND THE OTHER FRIEND TRAIN IN JUST FORMS. AFTER TWO WEEKS,GET TOGETHER IN A GYM CLOSE THE DOORS AND GO AT IT. I GUARANTEE THAT THE FORMS GUY WILL WIN THE FIGHT. IT HAS BEEN DONE. THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY

Drunkenostrich,
Bahahahahaahahahahaha…it doesn’t sound like you have done it yourself. I challange you to try what you just said and I am sure it will open your eyes to the truth, after the swelling goes down of course -ED

ginsuedog,

Well i think that you have missed my point.
i apologize for miscommunicating it to you. i tend to be a bit stumbly and drunk sometimes. but i will try to be succinct…
okay…here goes…THE FORMS MAKE YOU A FIGHTER!! BUURRRP! FAARRRRT! STUMBLE STUMBLE
SHMACK!!!

HuangKaiVun stated:
“Has anyone out there met in person or fought a kung fu practitioner who could dissect his solo sets and use the techniques on an unwilling opponent?”

Hello. yes I have met people who could apply their kung fu to an unwilling opponent. The way they accomplished this was by reverse-engineering their forms to the point where they perceived said forms as manifestations of underlying meta-movements in the style. Then they could certainly apply it in a streetfight.
Let me define meta-movements as the underlying core techniques of manifesting power in a physical style. Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming calls them “jins” in his book “Essence of Shaolin White Crane”. The point I’m trying to make is that the techniques that may constitute a form in some art must be understood as a way of manifesting force through muscular power and gravity. When you understand your art you can reverse-engineer the forms. Then you are at the point where you understand some of your art. Then you are not constrained by the need to perform some particular technique. You have several techniques on hand and you simply attack your opponent in his open areas.
I guess the way I should say it is that you have to approach your art logically and try to understand it’s tactical perspective in terms of “bridging the gap”. Then you have to train physically so that you can perform any technique in accordance with the underlying physical principles that make them effective.
Read “Principles of Effortless Combat Throws” and read my friend Marc Macyoung’s latest book “Taking It to the Streets”. Both are available at amazon.com

Hi,
My name is Stephen.
I have been studying traditional Karate
and kungfu since I was 16. I have 2 black
belts and one black sash.

I’ve read all of the responses, and I must
say that many were very intellegent, many
weren’t. So I will give my humble opinion
about whether forms are useful for modern
western fighting.

I believe the first thing any MA practioner
must understand about fighting, at least hand-to-hand or weapons fighting (guns excluded) is that human beings have all fought
the same way since before recorded history.
Yes, I know that each culture has a form of
fighting, but if you look at them closely the
only thing that we can do is punch, kick, or
grapple. The Chinese way of fighting is the same as the African way of fighting, we only
assign different names to them.

Now, the other thing is that each culture’s
form of fighting has developed set routines (forms) to pass on what the originator of the
system wanted the warrior to learn. This is
true of all cultures. Some do them as dances
(i.e. capoeira) some as set pattern. The important fact that we forget is that the
originator of the form could sure as hell fight with it. I don’t believe for one
minute that the founder of the Black Tiger
system of Kung fu created forms for the
system simply for his health. He/She had
to defend himself and his family with what
he knew of his form or system. Not only that,
but obviously his students felt he/she could
fight with what he/she knew or else they would not have been the master’s student.

The problem is not forms, but the people who
teach them AND the people who learn them.
Specifically, and I am speaking from experience, many times the people teaching
the forms have no godly idea how to fight with them. They’ve memorized the movements
to get promoted, but they have know idea what the movements are for. So if the teachers don’t know how to use the forms
how in god’s name do we expect students
to be able to use them. It is equivalent to
being able to read, but not understanding what you’ve read.

On the other side of that coin, students
perpetuate this travesty by not asking questions of the form, or of their instructor. The first rule of learning anything is not to take anything on blind
faith, but verify the truth for one’s self.
Many times, when a form is tought out, a student will blindly follow the instructor’s
comments on the form, practice the movement
in a preset situation, and leave with a false sense of security about the effectiveness of the technique from the form.
What a student must do, and instrustors must,
allow this, is ask questions of the for.
Actually STUDY the form and not just memorize
it. Repetition fosters memory, not skill.

How does one study a form? You have to break it down into its component parts and ask of
it “What is going on here?” or “What principle is contained in this movement?” The second question is probably the more important. I say this because every technique contains a principle or concept that makes it work. Once you understand the
principle or concept, YOU DON’T NEED THE
TECHNIQUE ANYMORE!
For example, I have a 1st degree black belt
in Shaolin-Do Karate. A couple of months ago
I was sparring with a 5th degree black belt
in the same system, but from a different
school. In our system we have several praying mantis forms in our system. I have not learned any of them! However, I have seen them on video tape. I study them, and when I come across an idea I try them.

Long story short, using what little I knew
of the one mantis form I’ve studied on video
I mopped the floor with this INSTRUCTOR of
a much higher rank. He knew the same form
and could do it beautifully. But he could not use it. I DON’T EVEN KNOW THE FORM! But I can use it because I know what the form is
trying to teach.

All I am trying to say is that at each level
when studying forms, actually study the form.
Don’t just memorize it, don’t just take your
instructor’s word or interpretation of the
form as gospel truth. Analize the form, ask
questions of it. Play with it. Try and fight
out of a particular stance. You don’t learn how to ride a bike by not sitting in the seat and pushing the peddles. And you won’t
learn how to use your forms by not trying
to use the movements on an opponent.

Good Luck

Stephen

[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-07-2000).]

Kungfukid,
It appears to me, you need to get out and actually look around you because you cannot make such large generalizations. This is not a attack on you. Yes, we all punch and kick and grapple, but we also all do it differently. Watch a pro boxer carefully, can you actually confuse his punching techniques with karate or TKD? Watch a BJJ competition, it doesn’t look like wrestling to me. Yes each culture has it’s own way of fighting and there own way of doing things, there own way of training and some are closer to others and some are completely different, but making the generalizations like you have is just plain wrong. Can you actually say an art like Capoeira can be confused with any other style in Brazil or anywhere else? I think if anything many japanize and chinese martial arts look similiar both because of the location they share and the fact that both were constantly at war with each other. What I am saying is that your conclusion maybe somewhat sound but how you reached it just generalizing on limited facts and that is unsound.-ED

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 06-08-2000).]

Thanx for your reply. I appreciate it.
My reply does come from looking around
at other styles. I’m 30 years old. I’ve
been doing MA for over 1/2 of my life.
I’ve had a chance to cross hand with
many different martial artists from
many different systems. One thing is
constant, a punch is a punch, a kick
is a kick, a choke is a choke. Even though
we put different names on them and perform them differently, they are what they are.
So my point is this whether or not someone
thrown a kick at me who is a TKD or a Capoeira practitioner, it is still just a kick. I can use one of two principles to
defend against either kick, get out of the way or somehow block it. The kick may performed differently, but the principle of defense remains the same.

When I said we fight the same, I wasn’t necessarily saying that we look the same.

Thanx again
Kungfukid.

EXCELLENT POSTS KUNGFUKID! I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

SO KUNGFUKID? do you still train with MASTER
PRICE?

Kungfukid,
There are more then just those two principles but is a completely different debate. What makes a system or style different is often the physical dynamics of it’s technique and underlying concepts. The way a TKD fighter throws there kick is completely different then the way a Muay Thai or Capoeira fighter throws there kick and some may require you to take a different approach when facing them. As I said before it is a big mistake to generalize all these different styles based on only the chinese martial arts. It would be like me saying that all chinese martial arts look like wing chun or that kickboxing and Muay Thai are the same.-ED

Hi, drunkenostrich!
Thanx for the replies.
My instructor is not Master Price.
My instructor is Barry Webb. I went to
Master Price’s school for about a month,
then switched.

Hope to hear from you again.

Ginsuedog, Thanx for your reply. I appreciate it. Apparently, I’m not communicating myself very well, so let me
try to clear the water here. It is obvious that there are many different systems of
martial arts in the world, not all of them base on the systems in Asia. However, even though these systems are non-asian in origin, they contain the same tool. And even though these tools are performed utilizing different dynamics, the principles for defending against them remain the same.
You are incorrect in saying that there are only to principles involved defending a kick.
If you were to say that there are more than two TECHNIQUES to defending a kick, then we would be in perfect agreement I think. For example, If a practioner of TKD threw a kick at me, say a sidekick, I could use a number of techniques to block the kick, but no matter what technique I use the principle
is singular in nature, that is impede the progress of the kick. My block may stop the kick, my block my deflect the kick, or it may redirect the kick. The bottom line is the progress of the kick is stopped. Again, I may decide to side step. I may go left, I may go right, I may go backwards. The principle is again singular, get out of the way. These two principle are what every fighter does no matter where there from or what system they practice.

As far as systems are concerned, It doesn’t matter how you perform a kick or a punch or whatever. The dynamics of a kick to not change the fact that it is a kick. The dynamics of a punch do not change the fact that it is a punch. Nor do the principles of defending said strikes change. Timing and techniques my change, but the principles don’t. So, I believe my point stands, but to try to bring clarity to this discussion, I will say what I said earlier a different way. There are many systems of fighting in this world that use similar tools even though they may be performed differently, they are still what they are, punches, kicks,
and grappling techinques.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drunkenostrich:
SO KUNGFUKID? do you still train with MASTER
PRICE?
[/quote]I see you’re from Texas. Do you study with Master Schaffer?

KungFuKid,
I think you need to reread my post and your orginal post and reply to me. It was you that said there are only two principles, to move out of the way or to block or parry.-ED