Here’s a news flash, the only techniques in a kata or form are the ones that you know. If you don’t know what a movement represents then it’s just a movement. It’s not hidden or secret it’s just a movement. You won’t learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique. After that you need to drill those techniques and spar with those techniques.
End of rant.
I’ve always thought that katas were more the art side of the coin. a well executed kata can be a great thing to watch in the same way that a painting can be a visual feast (except that painting doesnt usually have a combat side to it)
And sadly neither do the majority of kata as currently understood.
Dang straight, rogue. Kata/form instruction is generally sub-par.
I’d rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?
Originally posted by Vash
Dang straight, rogue. Kata/form instruction is generally sub-par.
I would lay the blame about 50/50 with BOTH teacher and student.
Seen it often and also see it at my current kwoon, there are some students even when shown the applications either don’t grasp it or couldn’t be bothered.
The BEST Teacher can’t do much with a student that is not willing nor vice-versa.
Nuff said for now.
this is a good topic, and there are several thing to keep in mind. yes, if one doesn’t contemplate the applications of a movement, and then drill it, then it’s just a movement. while that might not be the ultimate goal for many, that doesn’t mean that just practicing some applications from forms is a futile use of them. not to be cliche, but a martial art is a martial art, and not some elite ‘scientific fighting system.’ there are other benefits to practicing forms such as the pure aesthetic beauty of doing them, but moreoever, the athletic benefits that you gain from going through various techniques and stances, as you develop focus, concentration, balance, leg strength, etc.
also, one reason why i personally love learning katas is that i believe they give me a great exercise to do whenever i am not training with anyone. and even in old age, if i stop fighting, i can still practice my forms in my house (or room).
others may prefer to just shadowbox or work on a wooden dummy, bag, etc., but forms are just another similar (but not exact of course) exercise. 
I am with rogue in the way that form training should be done at a later stage, preferably after the basics were trained heavily.
Also I feel that many schools don’t have a balanced approach do their training regime, either too much form, too much sparring, etc.
Form training like all other forms of training are tools their use needs to be taught correctly and than they need to be used correctly.
Said that I have seen many things that were done sub-par (especially sparring).
One thing also I feel strongly about forms training that the student needs to discover a lot of things from doing his forms, things that can be transmitted but won’t sink in till the student found/discovered it within the form.
Just some thoughts.
Dang straight. Basics first, then the forms.
Hey, Isshinryu has something like that . . . 
I wish I could drill this into those fu(cking hooligans in the kid’s class.
I mostly agree with you rogue, except that I don’t have an issue with teaching forms early as long as you make sure people understand that forms are not the focus of your training, and that the applications are taught and drilled properly. It is my belief that at some stage people reach a proficiency in their art that they can figure out the applications by themselves, however a good teacher is still required to get you to that stage. Once you get to that stage then you are able to unlock the ‘secrets’ in the form
Kihon and kata and Kihon Kata
Kihon (basics) are learned when practicing the beginning forms. Static line drills or ones with movement are fragmented versions of kata training. Bag and focus-mitt training, along with 2-man drills are best done after the kihon are understood from forms training. Kihon drills are good for brand new types, but beyond that they really have no use. It’s like free sparring; beyond the intermediate level it trains nothing and in fact ingrains overconfidence, bad habits and hope fighting. As for Jiyu Kumite (free sparring), perpetual randori is good for controlled grappling styles only.
Kata, hojo undo (supplemental training) and 2 -man drills are all you need at the Shodan level or beyond. If your ryu or system doesn’t use these things (2-man drills) then that schoolboy karate is good enough for most modern karate purposes.
Kata is where you string basics together and often repeat movements on both sides. Kihon line training is used to take up time. All the techs you can learn- advanced, intermediate and beginner- are in the kata. You can “drill” your basics with PROPER forms training. Think about it.
So your saying…all those little black belt kids in TKD and Karate have learned all the basics through forms?
I always thought basics had to be developed with stance/strength training also… Having a black belt/sash should not be something easily accomplished by most little kids.
Originally posted by SanSoo Student
So your saying…all those little black belt kids in TKD and Karate have learned all the basics through forms?
I always thought basics had to be developed with stance/strength training also… Having a black belt/sash should not be something easily accomplished by most little kids.
Kids below 16 should never be awarded yudansha rank or a black sash. Most adults practice “Schoolkid” karate, too.
So, no, I’m saying that if all those little kids and “big kids” did learn their basics from forms maybe karate/chuan shu would be “effective” again, and it’s original intent would return, or would have never been omitted. That way sparring wouldn’t be diluted kickboxing and kickboxing wouldn’t seem more effective than kung fu/karate. You can train kihon (basics) some at the beginning, but after you learn your first form, the frequency should be lessened.
Is what I posted hard to comprehend? I would guess for most the answer would be yes. It’s such an odd/unfamiliar angle that I present.
Put another way, train with SOME kihon drills and LOTS of kata, hojo undo and 2-man drills. Kata teaches stance training, too. Hojo undo is all about body hardening, tendon strengthening and strength training. Try this with your students and tell me what kind of results you get.
Does San Soo have forms? Sorry if it doesn’t. Peace…
I dont see why a child shouldnt be able to attain a black belt. thats like saying that short people shouldnt be able to get one either. I just dont see how many kids CAN get one. In all my training (about 6 years all up I guess) I have only met one kid who I think had the discipline and skill for a black belt (well hes brown belt atm, but by the time hes a bb he will probably be about 13)
Of course he would never win a fight against a grown man, but then I would probably never win a fight against Andre the giant or Shaquille O neil. that doesnt mean I cant be a good fighter in my own right.
Re: Tired of kata/forms bullsheet.
Originally posted by rogue
You won’t learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique.
Says you. But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way. If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms, you just have to pull them out.
And I disagree, I prefer that short forms are taught to beginners. It gives them the best type of exercise and teaches their body how to move.
I did 5 years of kung fu forms.
Another reason why I love BJJ so much, no forms
I think I’ve been at this before, but …
I ‘sort of’ agree, but only to a point. However, the more I gain skill at ‘reading’ and practising forms, the more I’m realizing that there are no ‘moves’, there’s just movement. Of course, it depends a bit on how your style/teacher/whatnot approaches forms (I’m sorry, but it really does). Principles, fundamental movement, practise of whole body coordination .. it’s all there in the good forms.
The problem – as I see it – is that people don’t get forms. They practise them as something they have to do, with the spirit of “I started this, so I’m going to get to the end”, just like completing a set of reps. Much more can be gained from doing forms with a very observant, open mind. Not necessarily thinking hard about a single application of it, but truly exploring the form – feeling it. It’s something that took some time to happen to me, but I think the fundamental point is that before you can start practising kung fu, you have to learn how to practise kung fu. That’s part of the basics.
For mew, in my system, each level has a form. Inteach bare bones basics first (when i was teaching that is), then as soon as possible I taught the first from. Once the student could preform the form’s sequence, i broke it down and extracted drills and self defence from it.
I have had people tell me there are supplementary things not found in the forms, but when I am shown this stuff it, so far, has ALWAYS been movements found in the form that has either just been isolated into a drill, or just had resistance somehow added to it.
Each level has a form. Each form is the curriculem for that level. If you want to teach it in it’s entirety first, or break it up and teach it one segment at a time and assemble it only at the end of that level, it does not matter. Either way works just as good.
bunkai
full contact sparring
forms have purpose. forms also contain techniques. and yes, whoever teaches you the form shoul teach you what the techniques are for, even in a general way.
if you don’t think form is the style then you are wrong.
the forms contain the techniques and information of a style.
people who think form is just for show, are also wrong, except in the case of those forms that are devoid of correct structure (which is teh case with poorly understood forms in any style).
don’t knock em, they do the work they were designed to do.
I think a lot of people don’t like forms because they are too lazy to learn and remember and disect them. But then, there are a lot of lazy martial artists lol.
cheer