Hi everyone:
I been thinking about traditional forms/katas
and their value in modern martial arts training. Since most forms/katas were created hundreds of years ago do they have any self-defense value today? For example: say you learn a form from Monkey kung fu(just an example no offence intended to that style), does the rolling leaping and exagerated movements have any real value?
I am a self taught martial arts of over 15 years with only a little formal training and have only ever learned a couple basic forms/kata(which I can’t even remember fully now) and have never been sure of their value in todays society. Looking for your opinions.
Keep in mind, the human body has not changed from the time all the styles and forms/kata were invented and revised and reformed and continued. They are as relevent today as they were at first inception.
If you took the time to stick around and actually study an art, you would see that.
This is not to offend you. I’m sure your martial art is quite useful–practicing fighting for 15 years, you’re bound to be good, and I applaud your efforts.
Surrender yourself to nature, and be all that you are.
As I tried to tell mr wootang on the other board(he obviously didn’t read my reply since he asked the same question again today), you have the wrong view of forms. That is in part to the way/category that forms have been utilized here in the west. We in the west have a traditionally Japanese way of looking at the Martial Arts. In fact, we’ve taken it to extremes that they never would have thought about. In the Kung Fu styles, the forms ARE the style. Everyone learns the forms and THEN learns how to utilize them. In effect, a person could learn a form from a teacher, and then spend the rest of his life mastering it. In the Japanese martial arts, they took it a step further-they developed pre-patterned sparring techniques based on the forms(3 step sparring.) This basically allowed for the “doling out” of techniques over time to students. In the States, we have taken it further. We only concentrate on the sparring and perform the forms to music to win competitions. Forms were originally there to teach the person how to do the individual techniques efficiently and effectively, which means powerfully. This has created a disparity that I find among martial artists everywhere in America-lacking power. It is often a surpise to a well trained American Karateka that aperson wont just fall into a mass of “quivering jelly” after a fancy, flashy diplay of techniques. It is a missconception to most that a person does the forms to use them exactly in the manner that they occur within the form in a real fight. Boxers do what is called the “Joe Louis Shuffle” in conjunction with a left right sequence. Are you going to fight in that manner and pattern when you step into the ring? No. But what it does is that after countless hours of doing the Shuffle, your brain subconciously transcribes the movements so that when you are in the ring, you will move with maximum effeciency and be able to punch with extreme power without thinking about it. Forms in the martial arts are no different.
Hey stickfighter, I am a white belt in a jiu jitsu school and have only learnt one kata so far. Sorry but I will not be of much help to you. But maybe you can help me.
I am interested in chinese martial arts but there are no schools in my area. I am trying to do the impossible by learning tai chi chuan from a book. I know that you can not learn it fully without a qualified teacher but I am just to interested. My questions are how do you train, books, video tapes what? Also I would like to know what styles you train in. Who do you spar with to ensure that your techniques are applicable on the streets.
I would greatly appreciate a response from anyone else. Wish I could have been a little more informative.
Jeizen: Most of my training ideas come from various influences, magazines, books, videos, ect. I’ve also come up with some training ideas from watching martial arts and action movies. The key is to have an open mind, look for ideas everywhere. My favorite magazines are Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu, I find they have the best overall coverage. As far as learning Tai Chi, you are better off trying to learn from a video rather than a book, I find it much easier and there are many to choose from.
RobinF: Thanks for the vote of confidence. There are many various reasons why I’ve not continued on any one style. In the region that I live access to real training is limited. I trained for awhile in Goju-ryu karate but didn’t find it to my liking. Then I trained in Hung Gar & Lohan Shoalin but my Sifu moved to finish his own training. I also trained with a local dojo that taught a self-defense oriented style that didnot involve forms/katas.
But I’ve based my solo training on Kung Fu, particularly the Five Animal Style and of course the Filipino styles of Kali, Arnis and escrima.
Stickfighter
[This message has been edited by stickfighter (edited 03-21-2000).]
jeizen, don’t take this the wrong way but what’s with all of Prof Dons black belts in so many styles, even styles without black belts? I mean 8 black belts? He probably knows what he’s doing but he needs to rethink his PR. I always get a little irritated when guys name a style after themselves. Do you study with him personally?
Aaaaargh excuse me while I get stressed why do people not understand that a form or kata is just a collection of the moves you learn so that you can know them all together and remember them easier. You are never going to go on the street and start practising your kata when being mugged by half a dozen 7 foor basketballers.
Its just like counting ok when you learn to count its easier to learn 123456 if you were taught 25 33 46 65 then you would get confused same thing with forms it collects all the moves and it a good reference.
people must understand this!!
without the stances, you have nothing
you practice the stances first to
train you muscles to preform the
moves. with out stances you have no
foundation. it is like building
a house on sand. it will be a house
but it will not be as strong as one
built with a concrete foundation.
I think of katas or forms as really long combinations or more practically a bunch of combinations strung together. It’s more fun to practice techniques in that fashion than just repeating one move 10 times.
Rivers: I agree that stance training is very important, I’ve developed routines to work my stance/footwork. What I’m unsure of is the value of the type of techniques contain in the traditional form/kata. I mean, what value is a lunge punch in real combat, would you really punch from the hip. Would you really perform some of the spinning, twisting, and jumping movements contained in some of the traditional kung fu forms. I think these forms are ok to learn for traditional and conditioning sake, but shouldn’t someone take the time to create some updated forms to reflect more modern fighting?
I am a practitioner of the Northern Wushu style of Bajiquan. In the past, before converting to Kung fu, I too didn’t understand the purpose of forms in real fighting situations. I had a background in TKD and Kali prior to traditional wushu.
When I was in TKD, I didn’t see the efficiency of the Tae guk forms. Also in tkd, the form wasn’t really representative of the style, its kicking combos was representative of the style. As for Kali, we learned mostly drills and one form. Although the form seemed to be more of a representative of the the style than TKD.
Then I began my wushu studies. I then found that the forms of each style was the representative of the style. In styles such as Bajiquan, the forms help build the chi and leg stength to deliver powerful strikes. At a more advance stage, you break down each movement of the style and learn it’s fighting applications. Without doing the form first, there is no way you can develop the energy to make each strike count.
Although most forms were practiced for over many generations, we must remember the political climate of when these forms were created under. Styles such as Preying Mantis and CHen Taijiquan were develop during times of war and family feuds. It’s techniques were proven in the battle fields and if your kung fu was not good, you would not live to see another day. Also in places such as Shandong province, were bandits and thieves prey on the innocent, your kung fu techniques needed to be good in order to travel.
Without learning the forms, I believe that your kung fu will not have the power or coordination to be used in combat. Without learning your ABC’s, then how can you learn to build words, then sentences?
i don’t know why i posted about stances only
last time… but i agree with wong fei hung.
they are just a collection of moves. it
is like practicing 10 different moves all
rolled into one. they are usually moves
that relate to each other. the fact that
they are all rolled into a form helps you
to practice all of them. if i use a punching
bag, i generally randomly strike the head
area or chest, or whatever. and i use only
a few punches… but with a form you do
many different moves. so i think forms are
of MUCH more value than people give them
credit. and if you want moves to become
instinctual, you must practice them
repeatedly. forms are a good way to practice
many different move over and over. but this
is just my opinion. you may find that
you learn more by doing one move over
and over, then moving to the next, and so on.
i feel i get more done, because i am doing
more moves.
Forms also help to develop the clarity that
one might never develop with just sparring.
I think both activities serve MA well in that
they strengthen the two different states of mind-when we are doing forms it’s easy to get
distracted about work,the clock,your girlfriend/boyfriend,hunger. Doing forms help
to quiet that part of the mind.
When we spar, we have to find a way to channel our adrenaline and stay in control and stay loose physically.
It’s comparable to training in the theatre.
You might rehearse for weeks to perform a play once or twice. All of the rehearsing is
there so that when you’re on stage(or actually fighting)you don’t forget your “part”.
If all you ever did were forms and prearranged fighting or bumkai,you’d be missing out,just as if you didn’t have the
foundation of learning the forms to help develop balance and strength.
Forms have alot to teach that cannot be taught under normal circumstances.
In karate, alot of the strikes that are at odd angles demonstrate pressure point strikes, and in one form of traditional okinawan karate, the kata includes counters against jiu jitsu and other grappling arts (actual grappling taught in the style was limited, it concentrated on deep stances and power knockdown blows), which were used by their enemies.
So, even though the karateka could not spar against the jiu jitsu practitioners regularly, they were taught the escape and countering techniques for attacks they were likely to encounter, and were prepared to fight a style which they may not have even sparred against.
They often have varied and hidden applications, which require excellent fighting knowledge, or a good teacher to pick out. So do not underestimate their value as learning tools, and certainly don’t confine their use to demonstrations or to a meagre dance.
Not all moves in solo fighting sets have direct combat application.
Some of these moves are designed to enhance one’s motion, conditioning, and/or mindset.
For example, the spinning crescent kick in Northern Shaolin isn’t necessarily a kick. It actually teaches a disciple how to spin quickly and smoothly without losing his balance.
The kick also increases one’s agility and taxes his physical endurance.
Doing the kick in the prescribed sequence of the set may also allows for the requisite discharge of energy after the practitioner has wound himself up with a flurry of combinations beforehand.
The kick trains the mind to stay calm in the face of action - a requisite prerequisite for combat with a resisting opponent.
Let me throw in a comment or too even though I am a visitor to this forum. Since my training began in the arts back in 1968, I’ve heard the same comment about forms/kata being useless in real fighting. Here’s my take on the statement through the years.
The forms are meant to teach you the alphabet of your style and one use for the series of “letters” in that particular style. A good teacher encourages his/her student to come up with additional ways to use the form(s) and practice. Then, during sparring practice, the good teacher teaches/shows/demonstrates the way to keep using the style, during the heat of combat. It’s always up to the student to be always thinking of move/countermove/finish type of stuff and the BEGINNING POINT is the form, not the end point.
Some styles in my experience are better than others to teach the use of the forms (and fighting technology if you will) than others.
I had trained 2 styles of Karate and then Hung Gar Kung Fu before I was trained in XingYi and the use of fighting techniques and angles in our system compliments the alphabet of the forms quite well and I feel much better than the prior training I received.
It’s always a combination of the student, knowledge, advice from the teacher and self-experimentation that wins the day.
Now, a interesting story from my Karate past. Had a friend, we were all Black Belts at the time, who was a big fan of sparring, thought forms didn’t teach you the right stuff etc.
This guy eventually leaves a Chito-Ryu style school to go train with a Wado-Ryu school. After a number of years, shortly before the founder of the system died, he met the founder in Japan. (The Wado-Ryu founder was one of Gichin Funakoshi’s students at the dawn of bringing Karate to Japan. He invented free sparring in Japanese Karate against Funakoshi’s wishes, Funakoshi always thought Karate too dangerous for free sparring) and his Wado-Ryu players became quite good at fighting! He asked the founder “how do I increase my sparring ability?” The guy answers “Keep practicing your kata”, which completely blew this guy away! He came back with a new appreciation of form(s) and form practice.
Good luck to all.