First and Foremost, I respect all martial artists and their arts. The views that are presented here are very good. Especially the analogy of learning alphabets. Forms are like text books. Do you recite your entire collection of books to answers one question in a written exam?
Why is it okay for shadow boxing and not forms or katas practice?
True what’s the difference?
Because Bruce Lee said so…
Becasue it’s memory work …
Because it not instant gratification…
Because, because, because…
The list goes on and on …
The real reason is that the western view of physical action has nothing to do with the mind. Physical movement is corpal not mental. They are seperate entities. It will not improve your mind’s intelligence from physical action nor vise versa. The result? bull fighting, not smart fighting. One of the aims of Kung Fu is to educate a person to view the body, mind, and spirit are one. Your body is an intelligent ecological system. So are your mind and your spirit. They interact with each other and with your opponant(s) and with the rest of the world. Because of the western world view many never takes Kung Fu seriously. It’s really a shame. Read Bruce Lee’s stuff closely you will find traces of it. Unfortunately, Bruce himself has a very short attention spent. so, form isn’t really for him. I know many masters, who have really life combat experiences, practice forms and speak highly of those inspirations.
Ultimately, It’s your call. There are no superior methodolgy but principles that works.
Personally, I see forms training as pretty limiting. I think if you wanted to learn the individual “letters” of your system of fighting wouldn’t two man drills be a more effective way to learn them and if you wanted to learn to apply them wouldn’t sparring be the best way? Ultimately it comes down to one simple rule, you fight the way you train and it seems to me the best way to train is to train as close to a real fight as possible. If there was going to be a streetfight between two people, one being a traditional martial artist and the other a combative sports martial artist, I think I would almost always put my money on the combative sports martial artist as they seem to basically be better trained. I think the traditional MAist loses a lot of adaptability with forms training and in the real world that can be deadly. BTW, yes I do shadow box alot but there are two major differences between shadow boxing and forms or katas, first when you shadow box it is a live pattern, meaning the movenments are spontaneous and not some set pattern developed one hundred years ago, and second in general the way you shadow box is pretty much the way you are going to fight, now all of you have basically said that the way you do your forms is not the way you fight.-ED
[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 04-13-2000).]
I will keep this very short seeing as how you have all posted very valid reasons for katas/forms. The only one I noticed not mentioned was that forms have the benefit of training transistion. Transision from a kick to punch turn change stance and so on. Transision from one move/stance to another is VERY IMPORTANT in my opinion.
(o yeah please excuse my poor spelling)
sorry to get off topic, but this response caught my eye…
GinSueDog:“If there was going to be a streetfight between two people, one being a traditional martial artist and the other a combative sports martial artist, I think I would almost always put my money on the combative sports martial artist as they seem to basically be better trained.”
i agree, but for a different reason. the people who play martial sports usually aren’t better trained. who is the last NHB or UFC fighter you saw who did Iron Jacket/Iron Palm/Muscle-Tendon Exchange/Golden Bell, etc.?
the reason i feel the martial athlete would win is because he is that. an athelete. he/she trains everyday for an extended period of time. not just stances and a form or two, which is how most (not ALL) of the traditionalists train in this day and age.
in a nutshell – not better trained, just training better.
Iron Buddha,
No, what I am saying is take anyone from a Combative Sports Martial Art and they will generally be better trained because there training is in general more intensive. Take your average everyday joe training Muay Thai or Sambo or Shooto and they will be able to mop the floor against the average everyday joe studying forms from some three hundred year old CMA nine times out of ten. Yes a finger jab hurts like hell, but nine out of ten Kung Fu fighters out there cannot pull one off because they only train it in forms and cannot apply it when they really need it. It comes down to one simple rule, you fight the way you train, when I practiced Muay Thai, it was only twice a week after work for an hour and a half, but most of it was sparring, heavy bag work and heavy pad work. By the end of a year you know how to apply what you have been practicing and you know what techniques you have been practicing actually work.-ED
Thanks for the replies, the topic generated the “heat” I was hoping for. Someone mentioned shadow boxing. It has always been my opinion that shadow boxing is more like a drill exercise than a form. To my knowledge there is no set pattern in shadow boxing compared to patterns in forms.
I still feels in modern society that learning forms without sparring and realistic drills is dangerous. When was the last time you saw someone use a deep horse or crane stance or use some of the acrobatic moves contained in some Wushu and Nothern kung Fu styles or some of the high jumping kicks used in Tae Kwon Do in a real fight. I fell it is much better to concentrated on sparring. Maybe if someone took the time to update the forms to work in modern society I might feel different but till then I’ll stick to drills and sparring.
Stickfighter
[This message has been edited by stickfighter (edited 04-15-2000).]
I personally feel that forms/ sets does have a use. To me theyÂ’re very good to demonstrate to people who doesnÂ’t know what style you train in. Other than that, all the things that people have mentioned a form offers such as endurance training, teach techniques, combinations, qi training, etcÂ…can be achieved more efficiently by other means in your martial training.
Some people have mentioned the thing about shadowboxing and katas. The difference between the two is katas/ sets are codified form of shadowboxing. Shadowboxing is more realistic as you have to think for yourself and it allows for creativity. Its not because Bruce Lee said soÂ…its because shadowboxing is really a better way to train than forms training. Shadowboxing is not just limited to western boxing mind you, I would think that one training in Xingyi doing the 5 Elements Fists in a random manner/pattern is shadowboxing. As Ginsuedog said already, the big difference is that it is a live pattern.
Without trying what you do in sets on unwilling opponents, solo set training is useless in combat.
This is the only way one can discern the difference between motions with exercise purposes (e.g. the mentioned deep horse stance) and motions with direct combat applications.
The neat thing is that 99.999999% of folks out there don’t have the training nor knowledge to counter real kung fu techniques.
agreed. I’ts also good for scaring attackers away. If theres a bit space between ya then look them right in the eyes and with a calm face, stand in a crane one-legged stance. Most dudes would run I think.
Run and call their buddies to bring a video camera so they can make some money on World’s Funniest Home video.
They they’d sell it to Fox as World’s Worst A$$ Whoopings.
JWT
Yeah, most dudes will run TOWARD a crane-stanced kung fu guy to knock him off balance.
In truth, the crane stance is more a training device to teach good balance and the ability to stand on one leg than it is a sparring stance.
Few people realize that a more practical application of the “Crow Spreads Wings” stance in the “Karate Kid” (used by Danielsan to kick John Lawrence into submission in the final fight) is that of a knee to the groin when the opponent is grabbing your anterior chest with two hands.
This move also has a groundfighting application, especially for women being attacked by men in the mount position.
I DON’T agree.. any punk would be scared if confronted with a crane-stance victim. I don’t think the crane is good for fighting on the streets but someone that never trained any MA would be scared, cause they would think:
“oh my GOD he is some sort o kung fu master o somthin! I’d best be runnin outta ere before he stomps ma A$$!”
Actually, I think you would be inviting the “punk” so to speak to use your face and head as a speed bag. I once saw a video that showed real life streetfights, most of them I think from Canada. Anyway there was this one guy that ran out into the street with this big guy chasing him. Well the guy being chased suddenly stops and drops into a horse stance and fires a finger jab at the big guy chasing him. To make a short story shorter the finger jab missed and the big guy kicked the other guy’s butt without any problem. Moral of the story is do not assume something is going to work, unless you have pulled it off, and never assume it will work all the time.-ED
I agree, assuming a stance like the crane prior to a conflict, trying to scare of an opponent would not be disasterous, but down right funny. It would be far better to use a basic boxing stance. Performed correctly it would be enough give an attacker second thoughts. I’m not saying that a crane stance may not have it’s uses in a fight, but it has to be “snuck” into the fight.
Forms are fundamental to kung-fu. If you can’t fight with your forms it is because your kung-fu is no good, not that the forms have no value.
I study Hsing-I and the forms/kata are directly translatable into very good fighting techniques. No need to use kickboxing techs when Hsing-I is SO GOOD for combat.
I have found, however, that shaolin students tend to use kickboxing because they never were taught how to make the transition from forms to fighting.
Pretty soon shaolin will be the same as dancing, lots of pretty movement but no depth.
Helooooooo?? Did anyone actually read my post? I NEVER said that crane stance would be fitting for street fighting but I think it would scare the HELL out of an attacker!!
It would be far better to use a basic boxing stance. Performed correctly it would be enough give an attacker second thoughts. I’m not saying that a crane stance may not have it’s uses in a fight, but it has to be “snuck” into the fight. 