TMA in New York City?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

Blacktaoist,
No one questioned your background and I sure never called you a new jack anything. I only said you answered the question. I even said quite well as you can see. What you say about B.P. Chan is the same I have heard from others who knew him. I am sorry I never had the opportunity to meet the man myself. I only asked if you plan a workshop at the New York tournament???

Thanks RAF,

We had a great time last year at the tournament and you can count on us coming again next year. We just thought it was important to go to the “first ever”, “all baguazhang” tournament in New York. Very true about the “mess” when you talk about flights, lodging, missed work, family and on and on. Your lucky that your wife has family in China to stay with.

22

Raf,
I never think this was a set up , and for one I can’t be set up. I know who I train under.

Kenneth colen didn’t even studied that long with Master B.P. Chan. there are lots of people that claim to have studied with master B.P. Chan many of them in fact have only train with the man for a short time, all iI will say is I wouldn’t just go by what kenneth colen writes.

Here is a link to some information about Master B.P. Chan on my web Site. http://www.blacktaoist.com/Master%20B%20P%20chan.html

Now if you or anybody think, what I wrote is not true. All you have to do is contact Master William C.C. Chen.

I know for a fact Master B.P.Chan learn his internal arts in Fukien China. This is the first time I ever hear about him learning in the Phillippines.

Also you can contact Sifu Rudy Curry Jr, who train under Master B.P. Chan for about 17 years. Here is his e-mail: ramsis75@hotmail.com

Count, I will not be doing any workshop at maoshons event.

23

Why Not?

Please:)

24

Greetings Count,

I can Answer that for you.

Being that this is the first one, We’re taking it slow.
But watch next year. after all, it’s all about BaGua.

And also to add to the BP Chan topic.

B.P. Chan is not a part of the Yin Lineage. All the years that I knew him he never taught anything else but Dragon.

He learned in south China, not the phillipines. That makes no sense.

Maoshan

25

Please.

:smiley:

26

Quick word on Gong’s Bagua…

From what I’ve read, heard and was told, Gong Baotien’s Bagua is not refered to as “Dragon Bagua.” It’s usually called “Monkey Bagua” because Gong was small and used quick footwork and hand movements, not the big sweeping and coiling movements commonly associated with a Dragon.

I’m not sure, so correct me if I am wrong BT and other Yin style practioners, but I think in general “Dragon” techniques are more of a characteristic of Cheng style than Yin style. I think this has to do with the fact that there is less coiling…

Just my idea.

27

HongQuan,

I Agree with most of your post, I myself don’t like Gong Bao tien’s Ba Gua Zhang method. I have a few tapes of this Ba Gua Zhang style being perform, giving to me from a friend on KFO, I even know a Chinese teacher in N.J. that teach this method to a few students. I sometimes visit him just to see how he is doing.

From what he told me Gong Bao Tien is said to have learned from Yin Fu and was known as Monkey Kung" and Gong Bao specialty was quick change & fast nimble footwork in combat.

Anyway from my own observation of looking at Gong Bao Tien practitioners perform their Ba Gua Zhang form sets, I form my opinion base on my own living encountering experience with the few Yin style teachers I have learned from and the few Cheng style teachers I learned from, to make my veiwpoint, that is in my opinion Gong Bao Tien style looks like some form of Cheng style to me.

I just don’t see the Yin style body Mechanic characteristics in the Gong Bao Tien Ba Gua Zhang method. Also I don’t see any Lohan influence in their Ba Gua movemests (power) or issue jing in a fiery explosion with their body movements or snake palm.

What I see them do is practice their circle walking sets, like cheng style practitioners.

My Yin style teachers would tell me, the best why to tell if someone is doing Yin Style, is to just crosshands with them, if the person you crosshands with can’t occupy your territory with surprising speed- adroitly done effectually with little to no effect. then thats Yin Style.

So Hong Quan Im in arreement with your idea.

28

Blacktaoist, (please, in case you missed it)

Who is the teacher in New Jersey of Gong Bao Tien’s lineage. I don’t know that area that well but that would be pretty close to “New York Traditional Martial Arts”. I know two teachers that might fit that profile.

So you think Gong’s style reminds you of Cheng style? But not having dragon characteristics? The stories we hear about Gong are that he was so fast he would not just “occupy your territory”, but would be hiding behind you.

29

BTW

Welcome to the forum Hong Qaun. What style of bagua do you know?

30

RAF,

Could you please tell me how I can see the clip you are referring to?

Thanks,
LU

31

Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Pheonix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey. Many men, many interpratations of the same style. Bagua! BTW RAF, Snake and Dragon are so similiar in that wavy motion of movement. Kun, Tsuang, Cheng, Guo may be 1000 snakes to you but we do them in so many patterns and directions. I can understand why you would say snake but next time your really into it, feel your body. Some styles say feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey. It’s Bagua! I don’t know why Gong Bao Tien’s style of bagua reminds some of you of Cheng style. Gong was deep but his teacher was Yin Fu. Maybe it came to him in some opium induced revelation. Maybe he was actually influenced by others around him at the time. Same is true today. Different teachers, different styles. I don’t think any of us is pure. All you guys that live like Tung, raise your hand. I know you can’t raise your DlCKS. I know, I am rambling. None of this has anything to do with TMA in New York.

looking_up, I am sorry, my site is down for a while since I have been moving it and re-designing it. I could post it for download. It’s a demo which doesn’t show anything really. How’s you computer savy? Can you deal with quicktime?

32

"This is clearly seen on the clipping of Jason Tsou’s performance of the 64 internal palms provided by Count on his website. "

I Was thinking of this clip, but perhaps it is down now.

No matter.

As always, thanks .

LU

33

Didn’t see Count’s reply.

I have serviceable computer gonfu. Let me know where to go.

Gratitude -> Count

LU

34

Who is the teacher in New Jersey of Gong Bao Tien’s lineage. I don’t know that area that well but that would be pretty close to “New York Traditional Martial Arts”. I know two teachers that might fit that profile.

The teacher I know in New Jersey, You don’t know, because for one he is not renowned and two he keeps very low Key, He is very good friends with my Yin style teacher.

Count,Now like I told you off line and I tell you on KFO, the mehod you are practicing in my opinion is not Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. I seen your teacher perform on tape, that a friend on KFO sent me, and that little movie clip you use to have on your web site. I have seen many other Yin Style Ba gua Zhang techers perform in real life. And what your teacher was doing don’t look anything near what the Yin Style teachers I met was doing.
Now if your doing Yin Style, then in my opinion, it is Yin Style variation I never come a cross.
I even talk to a Yin Style expert by e-mail from the same Gong Bao Tien’s lineage as you guys that lives in Taiwan. And I ask him about you guys Ba Gua Zhang, Because I also have a tape of Raf teacher too.

His opinion was the same as mys. He said a lot, But I’ll leave it at that. He even sent me 4 free video’s of of him performing his Gong Bao Tien’s Ba Gua forms, and looking at his sets I can see you guys Gong Bao Tien’s Ba Gua forms look nothing close to his.

The bottom line is I don’t care if you are doing Yin Style, or how you say, COUNT STYLE" I just don’t like you guys Ba Gua method, Because it looks like some form of cheng Ba Gua Zhang.

Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Pheonix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey. Many men, many interpratations of the same style. Bagua! BTW RAF, Snake and Dragon are so similiar in that wavy motion of movement. Kun, Tsuang, Cheng, Guo may be 1000 snakes to you but we do them in so many patterns and directions. I can understand why you would say snake but next time your really into it, feel your body. Some styles say feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey.

Count, some time you make me LOL :smiley: with your animal theory post reply. Ok lets come back down to earth my good friend I hope, back to the physical dimension.

Because all the above $hit you just post is just Ba Gua Myth theory, that in my opinion is Bull$hit and have nothing to do with real fighting.

Man it time to get real with your training. Do you think training that kind of therory is going to help your in the REAL WORLD OF COMBAT" Man I use to be just like you, learning and following theses Ba Gua animal theories, in the end I form my own opinion that animal theories is all Bull$hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit.

Lets get real man, feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey.

Man it time to get real with your training. Do you think training that kind of therory is going to help your in the REAL WORLD OF COMBAT" Man I use to be just like you, learning and following theses Ba Gua animal theories, in the end I form my own opinion that animal theories is all Bull$hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit. The few Yin Style teachers I learned from, never taught me, telling me feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey. Even When learning Ba Gua Zhang forms I was taught to move my body with the right body mechanics and characteristic that is unique to most Yin style Ba Gua systems.

And each movement in Yin style forms have a great deal of lohan shaolin influence in their circle and straight line combat forms, I don’t see any lohan shaolin characteristics in you guys form at all.

Even Tomasz Yin Style Teacher who I met in Beijing China, Ba Gua Zhang form had lohan shaolin characteristics in their Ba Gua Zhang forms, and their Yin Style also. You guys are the only Ba Gua that I have seen, don’t have any lohan characteristics inyour forms, but more of Cheng movements with in you guys forms, even you guys Ba Gua postures look like cheng style, I never in my life seen Yin Style practitioners move the way you guys teachers move.

Every Yin Style teacher I ever met performing their Yin Ba Gua forms, never would you see their body movements swimming continuous like a fish swimming in water. And thats the kind of movement I seen you guys teacher perform on tape. It didn’t look like Yin Style to me, and I a lot of footage of Ba Gua Zhang, that my teach give to me, and I train under two Yin teachers so I know what Yin Style is all about. Now if you guys are doing Yin Style then it must be one hell of a exclusive and very unique style.

Now count, don’t take my statements the wrong way, The same go for you RAF. But I’m going to be real with you, just like I 'm real with everybody on KFO.

Now if you Guys Ba Gua is Yin Style, fine. But from what I was taught from my teachers and the many tapes That I’ve seen of Ba Gua Zhang, I just don’t see the Yin style characteristics in you guys form at all.

I have never heard Gong Bao Tian martial, as transmitted to Liu Yun Qiao, referred to as monkey.

Gong Bao Tian was also renowned by the name, Kung Pao T’ien. It was said that because he was very clever, and becuse his body was was long and thin, Gong Bao Tian movements were nimble , used guick changes in all his actions, that he become known as Monkey Kung.

in a few Ba Gua books that my classmate maoshan have, Gong Bao Tian Ba Gua skill is referred as Monkey Kung. As a matter of fact in Sifu Jerry Alan Johnson Ba Gua Book: Classical Pa Kua Chang,-fighting systems and weapons, They talk about gong Bao Tian Ba Gua Zhang skill also as monkey Kung.

Anyway I’m at my job, So I’m out for Now, I have not time to argue over What is Yin Style and what is not, I know the true facts, so for me its nothing to debate or discuss.

Yo Maoshan I know you are going to hit this one, have fun .':wink:

SEEK THE TRUTH ALWAYS, BUT THE METHOD MUST BE PRACTICAL’’

35

Blacktaoist,

Actually I can think of 4 people I consider higher level guys that do Gong’s style in NJ. One of them teaches publically two others just keep a very low profile. The fourth is the gentleman RAF mentioned in his post. He’s very knowledgeable too but I don’t know if he is teaching or not. Come on man, share. Since I will be out there next month could you at least tell me if they’ll be at Maoshans tournament.

Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson, huh??? Have you seen his videos? LOL, it would surprise me to hear that’s what you consider Gong’s style.

If I don’t talk to you before, Happy Birthday. Now don’t read the rest of this post cause it will probably sicken you with philosophy bull$hit.:smiley:

PS if you didn’t see my three previous posts to you about a workshop…PLEASE!

RAF

Maoshans tournament will be the first time that I know of where all the participants will bring bagua together for the public (in this country) and show their best stuff in the spirit of sharing what was once secret. How can you judge such an event? Every school has different forms. Different flavors. Even within the same lineage or even the same school you see different expressions of the same forms. Sometimes it can appear unrecognizable as the same. But than, the nature of bagua is change. Students of bagua should be encouraged to change the forms once they are learned. But one thing remains constant. Energy!!! These principles don’t come from the forms. They come from the basics. They are at the core of everything else that follows. But how do you see the core through the apple? Fighting!!! Apple-ication!!! But the apple is just the fruit of the tree. Not the root.

Stuff like Kun (Rolling), Tsuang (twisting/turning/drilling), Cheng (thrusting), Gou (wrapping) are the first thing beginners learn in our system. And standing. Once the root has sprouted, circle walking. Shao Kei Men (open the small gate) form. 8 mother palms form. These are some of the basics that are seen throughout. But at one time these basics were kept in secret and what was demonstrated for the public was very different. Sure it had the flavor of the apple, but the root remained hidden. If you touched hands it could be felt, but the method of cultivation was the secret of the farmer.

If you look at another branch of Gong Bao Tiens bagua, planted in Taiwan, you can see the same forms as we do from another perspective. In He Jing Han’s (from Gong Bao Zhai-Gong Bao Tien) 8 mother palms form, he does what he calls the 4 changing movements during each change. It is Shao Kei Men. Seems to me Grandmaster Liu pulled these movements out to focus on the basics of opening and closing. Another teacher from Gong Bao Tien’s lineage, Gong Zhong Xiang (from Wang Zhuang Fei-Gong Bao Tien) has gone even further, taking each animal and creating it’s own system, ala Xei Pei Qi. The forms are different, but the core is the same. Rising, falling, drilling, wrapping, lifting, pressing…So you can see, as water flows downstream and is divided by rocks and falls, it changes shape, but it remains water. At the top of the mountain it can be frozen at the source and at the end of the stream where it empties into the ocean it is the same in different form.

RAF, you are correct about the movements after number 8 in Jason’s demonstration of 64 palms. That is our signature. It’s not actually part of the 64 palms form. But as I think back on that demonstration, I seem to remember he did a couple lines from A side and a couple lines from B side. It was purely improvised. Much of the moment was blurred together and smooth. Most of the substance remained hidden. But again, that is the nature of bagua. Change, continuous change.

looking_up,
I sent you a link to download the movie of 64 Internal Palms form.

36

Raf and Count, I don’t want to fight about this Bull$hit, if you happy in what you doing, thats all that matters.

I know I can be hardcore with my post replys, but hey, thats just how I’m living. For me Ba Gua Zhang is my love, and I take this art for real, unlike some others.

But I going to change all that $hit, thats my word.

By the way count, I was not talking about Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson doing a form, I was just telling Raf about the information about Gong Bao Tian in his book.

37

nuff said

RAF,
If there is anyone more opinionated than the Blacktaoist, it’s Tomasz. But I get some good info from those guys. I’ll send you some pics of Tomasz and his teacher. You can look him up when you go to Beijing. I heard Blacktaoist and his crew met up with them on their trip.:wink:

38

Me being opinionated come’s from my experience of learning Cheng and Yin Style.

When I see these styles in action I know what to look for.

So I feel why should I argue about Yin style, a system I know much about.

So I let you Guys think what you want to think.

39

That’s what I said.

No insult intended, to you BT.

40

Ok count.

Raf, I hope when you go to Beijing China in may you met up with Tomasz, you can learn alot from his Yin Style teacher:D…LOL

Back to the real side Raf…

To bad you was not going to bejing in july of 2003 because thats when I’ll be back to train. And Me and you could have hook up, as A matter of fact I still can hook you up to met someone, if you are going in may.

Good luck in finding, real Ba gua zhang in china, because in my experience there is not much out there. But you have people living out there talking about there are many Ba Gua Zhang masters in Beijing, when in fact there are few, and they are not easy to find.

What you will find is most just practice forms, few can utilize Ba gua Zhang in a fight.

If you want to met my Yin Style sifu in Beijing Xu Shi Xi, let me know, and I’ll e-mail one of my Ba Gua brothers that live in Beijing to hook you up to met him.