TMA in New York City?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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I have an acquaintance living in Manhattan who is looking to start martial arts - as he says,
“I would like to learn something that will teach me good self-defense skills and keep me in good shape. I do not want to injure myself and be beat-up in the process. I’m not very flexible.I’ve done weight training for the last 7yrs and am not used to contorting my body or doing leg splits.”

Now personally I have a predilition for pushing him towards Hsing-I, but not living in the big city, I’d rather point him at a quality & reputable instructor than pick a name out of the phone book.
He was thinking of tai chi, but suspects it would take longer than he’d like to be functional. So, that would restrict it to teachers of whatever style, who while into the early introduction of applicable fighting skills, handle their students with care & delicacy.
Sorry for the pickiness!!

I appreciate your input.

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www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com

This man is the fourth generation inheritor of Imperial Palace Ba Gua under Master Wong, who got it from Gung Po Tien, who got it from the founder.

He is also very well known for his Hsing-I.

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Or

Dr. Su Yu Chang

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Sam Chin is the best in Manhattan in my opinion, he teach real practical form of combat. here is a link to his web site. http://www.iliqchuan.org/

Chan is alright also, as for Dr. Su Yu Chang, I know each time I vist his kung Fu class, I never saw them do any real kung Fu combat training, These guys mostly practice all kinds of forms, mostly Mantis.

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Also other good internal teacher That I know very well, is now teaching in Manhattan is wang Rengang. Here is a link to his web site:

http://www.geocities.com/dachengdao/

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Blacktaoist,
Did you ask Master Su about combat training or any of his students fighting? :rolleyes:

Actually Wang Rengang is one of the newest members of this very forum. I never met him, but he seems really knowledgable, and a heck of a nice guy. You might check out the Yi Chuan thread down below. I was curious about his stuff too.

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Thanks folks, for such swift replies

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I know, what I know from encountering experience

Ok I just look at the link you give of Wang on kungFuonline. I can tell you first hand that is not Wang posting.

For one, Wang english is not that good, I train with the man at Li Tal Liang school many times, me and him are like brothers, and I’m very good friends with the man. Wang use to live at the school before he move, I use to hang out with him sometimes after practice so I know how good he can speak english. Also he can’t even write english.

So I know for a fact that’s not Wang posting, Also Wang not the kind of individual to post on these kinds of martial art web sites even if his english was good. Wang is a very low key person.

I see There are a lot of nuts on kungfuonline.

Did you ask Master Su about combat training or any of his students fighting

Count, I been living in New York most of my life, I know about and vist every internal martial art teacher that is said to have skill.

I vist Dr. Su kung fu class many times, I know what he teach. And I know people that use to be his students, that now move on to bigger and better things.

Anyway The times I vist him , all his students do his forms and a few martial art applications. No sparring at all. They practice Yin style Ba Gua Zhang, that looks like wushu Ba Gua Zhang not Yin Style. Most of the time there be this little short white guy teaching Dr. Su kung fu class for him, and looking at him teach I knew he was a jack of many styles, and master of none.

The bottom line is Dr Su class teach mostly many different kinds of Chinese martial art methods, if forms is what a person is looking for then I say he is the man, but for fighting I think not. Not that I’m saying the man can’t teach other people how to fight, all I’m saying is the many times I vist the man class I never seen them doing any real combat training. :o

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Fair enough blacktaoist,

That’s why I respect your opinions. Because they come from first hand, personal experience, and not from things you have read or heard on the internet.

I know from my own personal experience about Su Yu Chang’s fighting ability and his reputation as a fighter and also some of his students successes. One of his students actually holds 6 consecutive world titles in 2 weight divisions fighting in Bangkok World Championships, using his Baji and Praying Mantis against Muay Thai fighters. There must be some combat training going on there. My own teacher was a student of Su Yu Chang’s before Su introduced him to Grand Master Liu. Not only is his fighting record pretty solid, but he is a great teacher too. Of course, he had other teachers and much fighting before and after Master Su. We know from history about Su Yu Chang’s teachers and their ability to use martial arts in real life.

On the other hand, Master Su is a notorious forms collector. Wushu-fied forms I doubt but that’s another issue. All I can say is, if you are looking for traditional Chinese martial arts, his is a rich history and as a Doctor, he has an in-depth grasp of internal as well.

In my experience in traditional schools, training that takes place over 20 years or more, will sometimes be forms and exercise and sometimes combat and fighting and sometimes technique and self defense and on and on. Alot depends on the students and where they are at. What they are learning at the time and what they want to do with their martial arts. Without getting to know a teacher over a long period of regular training, it’s impossible to say what the teacher knows.

LOL!!! if the guy posting as Master Wang is an imposter. The info I got about that guy came from his website. Same as the link you posted. Someone should let him know about the poster in these forums using his name.

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Something worth mentioning:

Who the hell are you? That is exactly what many skilled martial artist think when someone walks in the door. And, more preciesely, think of it this way BT, a black man comes into their place, what should they do (now know this is not my though, just what I have often observed) show you there treasure?

O, here is some guy off the street, let’s stop our two man powerdrills, break the line and let me demonstrate my best stuff to this no body.

Some of the teacher’s I’ve learned from PURPOSELY changed forms during demos incase soemone had an eye out or was filming. Maybe that’s being paranoid, but that is the case nonetheless.

Others have purposely shown rudamentary skills to blacks, or “unfavaorable” types to turn them away. Again, not say this is correct behavior, but I have seen it.

Ask BIll Gates to empty his pockets, you find nothing and go away laughing at his broke a$$ in ignorance. Yet he can buy you over a billion times with his unlimited credit card.

This is not directed at anyone, but I always read people judging others by their videos and what they have seen or heard. These men’s skills are great, they achieved exactly what they wnated when you bought the video. Who gives out good stuff just like that?

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PS

Also worth a mention. Those who know, don’t seak. There’s nothing more to see.

They also don’t judge, for in their judgements they judge themselves (there’s a little Marley mixed with the Lau Zu)

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I knew my “empty words” would be filled with prejudgements and forthcoming words would be necessary.

First, from what BT says, seems like he has had no problem finding good teachers. Second, I myself have had teachers who except anyone who seems “alright”.

My point is this, teachers will often time be careful of what they show. And, if for a moment you think outward apperances doesn’t play a role in people’s prejudgement’s well …

So, I’m saying, SOMETIMES, if you’re not so impressed with what you have seen, it could mean: a) the person is simply not impressive in and of itself, or b) they are holding back because they feel you are either b-1) from a nother school and just checking it out, b-2) maybe a little full of yourself so go to hell, or b-3) if you want to see what I really have be wise enough to hang around and see for yourself after class.

Or, there is always the possibility that one could miss something shown plain as day because they are so ready to see how bad someone is, they miss something of value.

I for one agree with most of what BT says pretty much all of the time, and race is never an issue with me, unless your an Arab now carrying a funny looking package and look nervous (survival instinct), my point is, yes, there is a lot of bad out there. But also people tend to live up to expectations. And, if one has reached a point where they can find fault in everyone’s technique, one has to ask why bother continuing to look.

Sorry you feel I have slandered a master I do not no, nor mentioned. Kind of proves my point of expectations.

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Raf,

my opinion, is just my opinion, I’m not saying Mr. Su is not a good teacher.

But I’m going to be real with my viewpoint about the Man, no matter if people like what I said or not. I’m just telling the truth of my own experience of my many visits to his kung fu class in downtown Manhattan in the 90’s. And you are right he don’t have a school, he had a room that he rent to teach in at 440. Now he teach somewhere downtown Manhattan near China town in the same place as one of Park’s so called top students, that is said to be able to hit a human being 8 times within a sec, something like that.

Anyway I don’t need you and count to give me a Dr. Su Martial art Biography of the man, I met the man and even read about the man and some of his students fighting reputation. But like I said I never met any of these fighting students of Mr. Su, and the Students that I did met of his in New York was not fighters, but form players of different chinese martial art that Su taught them.

So if Mr. Su have students kicking ass around the world thats good, But in New York I think not.

Now, whether he will teach bagua and its usage is another question.

The Ba Gua Zhang I saw his Students practicing look like WuShu Ba Gua Zhang. I know Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang when I see it. If Mr. Su Know Yin Style, then I know he not teaching it. Dr. Su main thing is praying mantis and Baji in my opinion. Not Ba Gua Zhang.

Like I said I’m no new jack to the martial art game, I know mad people in the arts. And I know many people that use to train with Mr. Su in the 90’s. Many of these individuals told me themself that Mr. Su main $hit is mantis and Baji and when I visit his kung fu class that was what most of his students paying him money for, to learn praying mantis and Baji forms.

There was only a few people in his Hsing Yi and Ba Gua Zhang class. How I find about about Mr. Su in the first place was from maoshan, back in the 90’s, me and him use to vist every Ba Gua Zhang teacher that we hear about said to have some kind of martial art skill in N.Y.C. And if they was Chinese their be the first on our visit list.

Mr. Su was going to be one of the teachers I was going to studie Ba Gua Zhang from, but after a few visits to his Ba Gua Zhang class, I didn’t see anything practical about his Ba Gua Zhang he was teaching.

My frist Ba Gua Zhang teacher was Sifu Rudy Curry Jr. And he taught Ba Gua Zhang as a combat art, so I knew what to look for before I even visit Mr. Su Ba Gua class, and Su was not teaching Ba Gua as a fighting art, his class was all endless Ba Gua forms with no freestyle fighting, just a few martial art applications. So I went and learn from my first Ba Gua teacher Sifu rudy, Ba Gua master B. P. Chen, and later met Chen Xiaoping. These two teachers was teaching Ba Gua Zhang as a combat method not a Ba Gua style of solo dances, and later two man dance applications.

He does have at least 3 schools in Japan and a number
in South America and Spain.

Mr. Su can Have a 100 schools, but the fact and truth is he not teaching combat in the New York where I’m at. Or have I seen any of his New York students fight in any fighting event in New York. and I have be going to Kung fu and Karate tournaments for years in New York, I never saw one student of Su fight in any fighting event ever hold in New York. He only have one top U.S.A. student that I know about, this little white Guy that all he do is forms. I forget this guy name, but I know hes on Su web site. And I know for a fact he can’t fight for $hit, but he can perform a forms well…LOL

he does teach applications. At the last Hall of Fame Tournament, he did a seminar on the Pimen two man praying mantis fighting).

this is what I said in my post reply to count:

Anyway The times I vist him , all his students do his forms and a few martial art applications. No sparring at all.

So I never said the man don’t teach aplications, I just don’t see Mr. Su way of teaching of Ba Gua Zhang combat practical for me. Anyone can learn reheared martial art application, and within in some time of training them, a person will look good at applying the techniques. Why?

Because a person knows what’s coming at them and they have the timing down of the other person their doing the technique with, each person knows the other rhythm. So in the end martial art application is still a dances. Two man dances not real combat training.

All my Ba Gua Zhang teachers said to me freestyle fighting is the best way to learn how to utilize any from of martial arts, and I find this to be true. And at the time Mr. Su was not teaching that way when I was coming around to vist him.

So I stand by my opinion about his ways of teaching. No disrespect in any way to the man. But I’m going to get it real always.

BlackTaoist
(Lao Qiang)

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I was’t going to say anything about the man in the first place. In fact I just posted his name with a link. Let the people make up their own minds. The man didn’t even ask about any specific style. Only TMA.

Later when we got to speaking editorially, I gave out information. I qualified what I said as being from my own personal experience. As was yours, Blacktaoist. No debate here. I just wanted to point out that in “Traditional Schools”, especially ones that have locations around the world and 100’s of students at any given time, there are times when a class can be full of people who want to learn to fight in competitions and other times when the class is full of people who just want to learn to beat ‘the only true enemy’.

Students come and go. Things change. A teacher usually teaches to a market. You know the ones who live uptown are looking for something different than the ones that live downtown. It’s simple economics. Give the people what they want.

Only the ones that stick it out for a long time get it all. Anyway, I agree with you that his mantis is his longsuit. And for the record, I’ve seen Master Su hit a man more than 8 times in a second.:slight_smile:

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Ok count you make a good points , one that I can even debate with you about.

Ok you may have seen Mr. Su hit a opponent 8 times in a sec, but one of park’s people I don’t think so.:smiley:

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Beware the only true enemy!

LOL!:smiley:

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Re: I know, what I know from encountering experience

Originally posted by blacktaoist
Ok I just look at the link you give of Wang on kungFuonline. I can tell you first hand that is not Wang posting. . :o

Respectfully,

He has someone translate his emails and post for him.

Also, I asked in class, he confirmed knowing about my posts here.

And, the very best of luck with the tournie at F.D. in Jersey, may it become a tradition.

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Raf,

Master B. P. Chan studied Ba Gua Zhang with Lui Hing-Chow. Master Chan was the only person in New York teaching the Cheng Yu Lung Dragon form of Ba Gua Zhang. Dr. Su didn’t teach that form of Ba Gua Zhang. At the time I mat Dr. Su He told me he teach Yin Ba Gua Zhang not Dragon Ba Gua Zhang.

Also the Ba Gua form he was teaching was not the same form Master B.P. Chan was teaching.

As for post training, there are many methods and many ways to practice on the post. To tell you the truth the Ba Gua post training can be a whole training method by it self.

I myself train mostly on trees. This was the first method I was taught by my Yin teacher Chen Xiaoping, I later move on to iron post that my sifu have in his backyard in queens. Most Ba Gua practitioners use wood, my sifu use 9 iron post that are about seven or eight foot iron post that are in a circle.

I would love to have take a picture of these iron post and put the photos up on my web site , but my sifu not having it. We do many Ba Gua Auxiliary training on these iron post, and if you are coming to maoshan Ba Gua tournament I can show you in a freestyle way, first hand the power and skill I develop from this kind of training I learned from my Yin style teacher.

Many people talk about this kind of training, but few put the time in, doing this kind of Ba Gua hardcode training for real. if a person is doing this kind of post training, as soon as you crosshands with another Ba Gua or martial artist you know if they have true power and martial skill. Most people today do the easy $hit forms and drills and maybe some chi Kung and call it a day.

But if they met some one that have done real post training and other Ba Gua zhang martial auxilliary training, and they have not, then when they crosshands with that person, they going to be very easy to deal with and beat.

Post training is just level one, there are higher levels of Ba Gua Zhang martial training then post methods. But I think you know that already.

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Blacktaoist, just a minor point…

Because you clarified RAF’s question, I think. Liu Hing Chow does sound like Liu Yun Chaio. And I am not starting a debate here because we have already had this discussion. We call our bagua, Yin Style because Grandmaster Liu’s teacher learned his bagua from Yin Fu. But we do say it is Dragon style bagua. Nothing to do with palms mind you. It’s Dragon energy in the body.

And a question??? Will you be doing any kind of workshops during Bens tournament. I doubt RAF can make it there because the Wu Tang Annual is the following weekend in Ohio, but I’m planning to come. Sorry Bob, I don’t think we can make it this year, but we’ll shoot for next.

Excellent post BTW.

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Because you clarified RAF’s question, I think.

I know I clarified Raf’s question, But to tell you the truth I don’t have to clarifiend anything, I train under master B.P.Chan, you have not. I know What style of Ba Gua Zhang the man taught, and its no where near what you guys are doing. But one thing I know for such Master B.P. Chan taught Cheng Yu Lung dragon form every internal martial artist in New york that vist and had train under the man knows that.

As for Master B. P. chan Ba Gua Zhang,any long time student that train under him will tell you, master B.P. Chan never talk much about his martial arts teachers, And no one care about his Ba Gua lineage, all we knew was we were learning from a very high level internal Master that could put a mother ****er on they ass very easy, even up to his last days.

Tell you the truth, I can careless about what Ba Gua style a person claim to practice, what matters to me if a person can utilize their Ba Gua Zhang in a combat situation. And most of the time many Ba Gua practitioners today can’t. Many people claim they are practicing Yin Style, but when they perform they movements have no characteristics of Yin Style, but they think they are doing yin style what a joke.

But we do say it is Dragon style bagua. Nothing to do with palms mind you. It’s Dragon energy in the body.

count do I look like a New jack to Ba Gua to you. You don’t have to mind me about anything when it comes to Ba Gua Zhang . Aways my lYin style teach would tell me, it don’t matter if its the palms or energy in the body, You better have develop your enery to a martial level and you better know how to utilize both your plams in offensive and defensive combat situations.

The real objective of Yin Style ba Gua Zhang is to be first in a fight and when training the forms you must have the killer mindset, utilize Yang offensive movements. Dragon energy Srroy I don’t think so. Not in real Yin style Ba Gua Zhang, maybe you are talking about Cheng style Ba Gua Zhang or my boy Sun Lu Tang:o