Roots

Greetings all. I am new to the forum and have truly enjoyed reading through the various posts: having not had the opportunity elsewhere to converse with other Kung Fu practitioners. I write to you with a heavy heart as my Sifu of two years has recently passed away. He was in his late seventies, in wonderful health and contracted brain cancer.

This said, I am starting now to try and more thoroughly understand the art I have been practicing. I first met the unassuming master in a local junior college teaching Tai Chi. When I found out that he taught Kung Fu at his home on weekends, I jumped at the chance. His method was very traditional…only two or three students that he felt were right for the art.

His teaching style was very traditional as well, choosing to drill the basics and give small insights to the deeper meaning or lineage of certain forms. I have been truly blessed by his teaching, but am now at a loss to understand the general lineage or family style I have been taught.

The little I know, as related by my Sifu, was that his father was trained at the Henan Shaolin Temple. As a young boy, he was taught by his father until the Communist regime took over and he fled to the US.

My hope is that you may be able to shed some light or lend a friendly suggestion to further resources that may aid in my quest. The forms I have learned are listed below: pieces to the puzzle. Thank you in advance for any advice.

  • Ba Shi Chuan
  • Fu Hsing Chuan (Lian Bu Chuan)
  • Kai Chang Chai Jaw
  • Shiao Lin Hung Chuan
  • Lien Huan Dow (Knife)

Ba ji Chuan

If you read anything about the Chinese martial arts you will probably be told that there are External styles and Internal styles and that the ‘external’ styles are ‘hard’ or depend mainly on ‘muscle power’ or ‘strength’; the ‘internal’ forms, on the other hand, are ‘soft’, ‘flexible’ and utilise something called ‘internal energy or power’. Furthermore, there are said to be numerous ‘external’ styles, particulary the so-called Shaolin fighting arts, and only 3 ‘internal’ styles i.e. Tai Chi Chuan, Pa-Kua, and Hsing-Yi. In China there are thousands of styles of Wushu (kungfu) and it is quite ridiculous to suppose that only three of them should be ‘internal’. The idea of there being 3 ‘internal’ styles dates back to the 1890’s and only started to gain acceptance during the 1920’s. There are, in fact, many other ‘internal’ styles including Lio Ho Pa Fa, Shi-San Taibao, Tzu-ran chuan, Wu Xing Chuan, Yi Chuan, Tzu-men chuan, Southern White Crane, 18 Lohan style, and Ba-Ji also written as ‘Pa-Chi’. The latter style, Ba-Ji, has long been practiced in China and Taiwan but until recently has been unknown in the West. What follows is a brief attempt to give some background and information about Ba-Ji style.

Let us consider first why this martial art was called Ba-Ji. In the ancient book the ‘Huai Nan Zi’ it is said that between the Heavens and the Earth there are nine ‘Jio’ and eight ‘Ji’; beyond the nine ‘Jio’ there are eight ‘Yan’; beyond the eight ‘Yan’ there are eight ‘Hong’. ‘Yan’ means remoteness, extending into the far distance, ‘hong’ means breadth; therefore, Ba-Ji was said to be something which spreads and extends out to infinity.

As regards who the originator of Ba-Ji was or even when it was first practiced it is very difficult to say, but according to the old texts a man named Wu Zhong (nicknamed Hong Sheng 1712-1802), also the founder of Ba Men Chuan (eight doors style) in North China, started to practise Wushu when he was eight. He liked martial arts and practised day and night, in all weathers. One night Wu Zhong was practising Wushu in the courtyard and an old man suddenly jumped from the roof and stood in front of him, laughed at him and said he was not practising properly. Wu Zhong asked who he was but the old man didn’t answer and started to do some kung-fu. Wu Zhong had never in his life seen such techniques so he asked the old man to sit down and tell him what he was doing. The old man told Wu Zhong a great deal about martial arts theory and techniques most of which he had never previously heard. Wu Zhong asked him what style was he doing, the old man said it was ‘Ba-Ji Chuan’. Immediately Wu Zhong knelt down and begged him to accept him as his student. The old man refused and said, “I’m going to travel a lot, how can I teach you?” But Wu Zhong persisted, performed three kowtows, and told him how much it would mean to him to be taught by him. The old man, realizing Wu Zhong was sincere and had a deep love for Wushu, was so impressed by his determination and enthusiasm that he agreed to accept him as a student . So he stayed at Wu Zhong’s house and started to teach him. After ten years of practice the old man said, “I’ve taught you almost everything and I have to go now.” Wu Zhong was very upset, kowtowed and said, “Master, you have been teaching me for ten years but you have never mentioned your name or who you are.” The old man said, “My surname is known only to my closest students - it is Lai.” The old man was Lai Kou Yuan one of the great and almost legendary masters of the past.

Later, after Wu Zhong had improved on Ba-Ji and it became more advanced he was invited by the great nobleman Wang Gong Da Ren to teach 150 of his retainers in his palace. Ba Ji started to become popular.

Wu Zhong subsequently passed the style on to Li Da-Zhong and Chang Kemin; Li then taught his son Li Gui-Zhao, and Chang taught his son Chang Jing-Xing. Through several more generations the art was passed on to the great twentieth century master Ma Fu-Luo still alive today in his eighties, living in Ningxia, China. Ma Fu-Luo is the head of the Hui minority people in his province and a strict Muslim not considering himself to be a Chinese. Indeed, in the past he has led a battalion of resistance fighters against both the Japanese and the Chinese. Until recently he has refused to teach Ba-Ji to any Chinese or non-Muslim.

In 1984 Master Ji Jian-Cheng met him and saw him perform Ba-Ji. Master Ji had previously studied Ba-Ji at the famous Wushu Institute of Chengdu but when he observed Master Ma he noticed that the Ba-Ji as practised by Ma Fu-Luo was something quite different although clearly the same style. The Ba-Ji as taught at the Wushu Institute was directed more at elegance of movement, speed, and dynamic technique. Ma Fu-Luo’s had all that but but was striking for its obvious great power, emphasis on fighting applications, and subtle use of internal energy. In fact, Ba-Ji, like many other martial arts, can be learned and practised in more than one way. For the majority of people, even in China and Taiwan, the style is done with the emphasis on appearance with little attention to its fighting aspects. However, Ba-Ji is a very powerful, aggressive and effective fighting art, but this side of the style has usually been kept secret or taught to very few people. In Taiwan for example, fighting Ba-Ji is practised by the presidential guards and various special security agents.

So when Ji Jian-Cheng saw Ma Fu-Luo he realised that he had discovered a genuine master of real fighting Ba-Ji and not the commonly practiced exercise-based Ba-Ji. Although Master Ma had not taught Ba-Ji to anyone outside the Hui minority people he took a liking to Ji Jian-Cheng, already a qualified Wushu instructor and master of several other styles, and agreed to teach him real Ba-Ji. Master Ji is now in England as Chief Instructor to the Tai Chi & Wushu Association of Great Britain and has recently started to teach Ba-Ji at some of his seminars.

Let us look now at some of the major characteristics and training methods of Ba-Ji. Most of the movements in the single Ba-Ji form are performed in a very sudden, violent, and explosive manner. There is a strong unleashing of force followed by immediate relaxation ready for the next action. Like Chen style Tai Chi, Ba-Ji also utilises ‘Chan Si Jing’ or ‘silk reeling energy’ where power coils through the body and is released in a sudden burst of energy, short but strong. The punch as shown in picture (1) actually starts from a low crouching position and spirals up into the final left punch, arm slightly bent, with a simultaneous right shoulder and elbow strike. The breathing is combined with the technique and a sort of ‘hng’ sound is produced in the throat on completion. There is also a slight sinking forward and down of the upper body.

The Ba-Ji form is done fast and aggressively with occasional slow and relaxed movements. There are frequent jumping and twisting techniques and sudden attacks and retreats. In fact one of the main distinguishing characteristics of Ba-Ji is its fast attacks followed by sudden withdrawing movements. There are no high kicks; just simple practical low front kicks, low leg attacks and foot sweeps, knee strikes, and stamps to the ankle, knee, or foot. There are several types of punch but the hand techniques tend to be mainly palm attacks, open-hand chops, finger strikes, grabs, blocks, and various locks and holds.

When learning Ba-Ji one usually first practices the basic techniques such as the coiling punch, relaxing and producing sudden power, and various stances. Later the Ba-Ji form is introduced bit by bit but it is necessary to practice individual techniques outside the form emphasising power and speed if one wants to do Ba-Ji as a martial art and not as a mere form of exercise. Later, partner work is done to practice the applications of the techniques and fast, adaptable and flexible reactions. The Ba-Ji form is undoubtedly a very good-looking and impressive form when performed skillfully but Ba-Ji is primarily a genuine internal style the main aim of which is to develop effective practical fighting ability.

Bagua Zhang

“Move like lightning, hit like thunder, and disappear like clouds.”

Bagua Zhang, also known as Pakua Chang, is one of the primary internal systems of the Chinese Martial Arts. It is best known for its “circle walking” training. Bagua Zhang is also known for its highly evasive footwork, powerful palm strikes, and lightning-fast combinations. The creation of the original or traditional Bagua Zhang is credited to Dong Hai Chuan. He created his new style of Martial Art by combining the circle walking mechanics of a Taoist Sect he joined with the Chinese Kung Fu he had mastered in his youth.

Some of Dong Hai Chuan’s students created their own various styles of Bagua Zhang. The “Eight Great Disciples” of Dong Hai Chuan were Yin Fu, Chen Ting Hua, Ma Gui, Ma Wei Chi, Song Changrong, Liu Dekuan, Liu Fengchu, and Zhang Zhaodong.

Different Styles of Bagua Zhang:

Yin Fu Style
This style of Bagua Zhang includes the practice of Crescent Moon Knives, the Wind and Fire Wheel, the Deer Horn Knives, and the Yin-Yang Brush Pens. Traditional Bagua Zhang forms and transitional forms, a mixture of Shaolin and Bagua, are also taught in this style of Bagua Zhang. Yin Fu, the oldest and longest student of Dong Hai Chuan, is credited to the creation of this style.

Dragon Style
Cheng Ting Hua created this style by combining the Bagua Zhang techniques he learned from Dong Hai Chuan with various Chinese Boxing techniques, specifically Shuai Chiao. This style of Bagua Zhang is known as Dragon Style because of its extensive throwing and joint-locking movements.

Liu Style
Liu Style Bagua Zhang is practiced in a straight line unlike other styles of Bagua Zhang, which are practiced by walking the circle. Liu Dekuan created a new form that included sixty-four fighting techniques from traditional Bagua Zhang practiced in a straight line. He decided to create this form after realizing that most people have difficulty developing fighting skills and internal components while they walk the circle. Today Liu Style is practiced in combination with other Bagua Zhang styles.

Today it is very difficult to name all the different styles of Bagua Zhang. In fact, according to a Bagua Zhang research facility in China, there are over a hundred styles of Bagua Zhang in existence today. Although different styles of Bagua Zhang exist today, their purpose remains the same, for good health and self-defense.

Qigong

Qigong, also known as Chi Kung, is one of the most powerful self-healing traditions developed in China. It is the science and practice of qi or chi. The word Qigong breaks into Qi (vitality, energy, life force) and Gong (practice, cultivate, refine), which means to cultivate and refine through practice one’s vitality or life force.

There are various estimates for the number of varieties of Qigong. Some are elaborate and complex, some mysterious and esoteric, and some simple and practical. Various Kung Fu styles include the practice of Qigong in their training.

Types of Qigong Used in Kung Fu:

External Qigong
This is for developing the Qi to make it very dense and resilient. Kung Fu practitioners such as Hung Gar and Shaolin Quan students use the External Qigong in their training to protect the arms and legs from injury. This style of external training is one of the best ways to bring the qi deep into the bone, making it very beneficial for health and healing.

Internal Qigong
Internal Qigong is the development of the inner muscles and organs. The purpose of Internal Qigong training is to relax while not using muscles, this is usually done in a subconscious manner, which can be static, repetitious, or both. Some of the Kung Fu styles that includes Internal Qigong in their training are Taiji Quan and Xingyi Quan.

Wudang Quan

Wudang Quan originated from the Wudang Mountain region of the Hubei province in China. Wudang Quan is known for its internal style of fighting. A Wudang Quan practitioner does not force against force, but rather redirects the opponent’s attacks.

Pressure points and weak spots of the human anatomy are the major striking areas of a Wudang Quan fighter. Most hand techniques used are finger strikes, palm strikes, and breaking techniques like Chin Na. Most of the techniques of Wudang Quan are based on short-range fighting tactics.

The straight sword forms of Wudang Quan are considered to be the best of all Chinese Kung Fu styles. It is based on the belief that constant change is the rule of nature and should also be guideline of sword play. Like the Wudang Quan empty-hand forms, the sword forms is well-known for its constant changes in footwork.

The footwork in Wudang Quan is light and agile and the body movement is soft and flexible. Wudang Quan requires peace, quiet, and calmness. It emphasizes more on achieving greater longevity, improving health, and strengthening the body rather than fighting as its primary focus.

Xing Yi Quan

Xing Yi Quan, also known as Hsing I Chuan, is one of the oldest internal styles of Chinese Kung Fu. Xing Yi Quan is commonly referred to as Form and Mind or Form and Will Boxing. The name illustrates the strong emphasis placed on the motion of the body being subordinate to conscious control.

According to history, the creator of Xing Yi Quan was Ji Jike from Shanxi province in China. He created Xing Yi Quan known as Shanxi Style during the early 1600s. Today there are three major styles of Xing Yi Quan, Shanxi, Henan, and Hebei.

Xing Yi Quan Styles

Shanxi Style
Shanxi Style is the original style of Xing Yi Quan. It is known for its vigorous and powerful movements and abundant releases of fah jing energy. This style is tight in frame keeping a well guarded movement structure, which is quick and extremely powerful. Today, it is the most rare of the Xing Yi Quan styles.

Hebei Style
Hebei Style uses much larger frames and appears slower in practice in contrast to Shanxi Style. The stances are wider and there is less appearance of fah jing energy in the practice of forms. It’s Five Elements and Twelve Animals forms are much simpler than Shanxi Style. More people practice the Hebei Style of Xing Yi Quan today than any other.

Henan Style
Henan Style is a very simplified style of Xing Yi Quan practiced exclusively by Muslim Chinese community. It has only Ten Animals structure, which are extremely simplistic forms that contains one or two movements. The Five Elements are present only as concept in this style, having no movements or forms representing it at all.

The techniques of Xing Yi Quan are characteristically aggressive in nature. A Xing Yi Quan fighter prefers to move into the opponent with a decisive strike at the earliest opportunity. Xing Yi Quan is a no-nonsense fighting system that is relatively easy to learn, but very difficult and long to master.

Thank you

Mantis:

Thank you for the very thorough post. That seems a concise list of the styles I have come across in my searching: well thought out and structured. Do any of the forms I mentioned in my original post, to your knowledge, fit into one (or more) of the particular styles you mentioned?

Crossranger,

I’m only guessing but it appears that the list you provided are a mixture of sets from different styles. It’s the spelling that throws one off. Number one maybe a style, spelled Ba Ji. In number 2, is the spelling lien bo as in continious step? Number four spelling is Shao lin Hung Chuan which is a hand set from another style? And Number 5 translates as Continious or linking Saber?

“Ba Shi Chuan” could also mean, roughly, “Eight Form Fist” which is found in some branches of Xingyi (Hebei Orthodox for one).

“Lian Bu Quan” is a common set within Northern systems, but I’ve never heard it referred to as “Fu Hsing Chuan”.

“Kai Chang Chai Jaw” I can’t even begin to guess. “Jaw” might be “Zhua/Zhao” which means Claw (eg, eagle claw, tiger claw). It could also be “Jia” which is sometimes used to mean style or family.

I’m seeing what looks like a cross between Mandarin and Cantonese romanizations here. “Shiao Lin Hung Chuan” is more than likely “Shaolin Hong Quan”, but in theory could be from Hung Kuen (or Hung Gar).

“Lien Huan Dow”, as NorthernShaolin guessed, is likely linking or continuous saber (Dao), which could be from just about anything without having seen it.

Sorry I can’t be of more help.

Romanization

Dear NorthernShaolin and Hephaestus:

Thanks for the insight. I, too, get the impression that the forms may come from different styles. According to my Sifu, the translation of “Eight form fist” is correct. The only other reference I have found of this form name is in a Xing Yi text that I currently have on order. I am anxious to find out whether the moves match the set I am familiar with.

I have transcribed the form names as they appear on my degree certificate…those which I have tested for. I do recall seeing notes or other material with different Romanizations, but those are now beyond my reach.

BTW: Hephaestus, have you considered starting a thread to discuss your sword-craft? I would be intrigued to hear of your methods and materials.

We could give you better insight and advice on the material you know if we knew more about your Sifu (name and Location)

Quite possible his lineage has additional contacts here or in china.

Sifu

Certainly…I did not want to seem presumptuous.

My Sifu’s name was William E. C. Wang and he taught in Southern California for the past 20-30 years. My first degree was issued under the Wang En-Cheng Martial Arts Institute, for which he was president. The degree also shows a permanent membership status in the National Martial Arts Association, Republic of China Hsu Yung Cheng.

Regarding his lineage, as I wrote earlier, Master Wang was trained by his father. I have not seen his father’s name written, so my best guess would be Wang Si Peng. Some number of years ago, Master Wang took a trip with one of his students back to China and visited the Shaolin Temple in Henan.

In relating the story, he mentioned the monks he spoke with as recognizing his father’s name. They still held it in reverence and did not charge Master Wang for a metal imprint stamp he received there engraved with the Wang En-Cheng logo (used to stamp the degree certificates).

All of this said, I cannot validate the finer points of his story. At the time I began training with him, age and his eventual brain surgery caused some of his memory to become cloudy and inaccurate. I do know that he spent some time in Taiwan, where he purportedly picked up Lien Bu Chuan…a form with a noticeably different feel than those others mentioned.

Hi CrossRanger,
Is there a more extensive lists of sets? and do you have the Chinese characters for these?

r.

My hope is that you may be able to shed some light or lend a friendly suggestion to further resources that may aid in my quest. The forms I have learned are listed below: pieces to the puzzle. Thank you in advance for any advice.

* Ba Shi Chuan
* Fu Hsing Chuan (Lian Bu Chuan)
* Kai Chang Chai Jaw
* Shiao Lin Hung Chuan
* Lien Huan Dow (Knife)

Complete List

r:

Yes…I have attached the “Record of Accomplishment” list that contains six degrees within the system and the Chinese characters they were derived from.

In follow-up to my earlier post, I received the Ba Shi Quan book in the mail today and was disappointed to find that it does not describe the same form that I have learned. The Xing Yi form only shares two or three movements that bear similarity.

Your lineage shares a number of names with our lineage.

Here are some quick observations.
-Shaolin Hong Quan - as with most northern Shaolin lineages the “hong” character used means ‘vast’ - can you tell me a bit about your set? There are two parts to Shaolin Hong Quan: Xiao and Da

  • Ji Ben Dong Zuo - is an old term for Shaolin basics
  • Zui Ba Xian
  • Some sets listed such as San Jie Gun are more generic, in this case it only identifies the weapon.
  • “Shaolin Dui Da”- this is a old term used for two person sets.

r.

Interesting

Thank you for your observations, r.

I’m trying to think of the most unique part of the set, perhaps the beginning will suffice:

  • With breath in, palms raise up through center, than down at sides
  • Both palms circle through center and are held out to side, assuming a Chuat Sing stance (closest I could find, we also call it a [I]sitting stance[/I])
  • Palms scoop up through center, right fist travels up, than hits left open palm, assuming a Kuai Ma stance (half kneeling)
  • Circular block leads to right step into right archer stance

I fear it would take more than a thousand words to construct this picture adequately, but if you are familiar with the set I am speaking of, it should crystallize.

You mentioned “our lineage”. Would you be willing to elaborate?

I fear it would take more than a thousand words to construct this picture adequately,

:-))) I hear you.

Actually I was more interested in the overall characteristics. Generally Shaolin sets travel in a line, mostly starting on the right first moving to the left. The Hong Quan that some northern Shaolin traditions/lineage such the one coming from Huang Bao Shan (1905 - 1998), and the Hong sets practiced by us is also very similar to other classical long arm boxing of northern China. What about your set? oor is it closer to the one publicized by the modern Shaolin monks?

The northern Shaolin I practice was propagated by the Henan Shaolin Hui an association formed by a small group of secular and lay Buddhist martial arts instructors, founded in Shanghai during the early 1900s.

I fear it would take more than a thousand words to construct this picture adequately,

:-))) I hear you.

Actually I was more interested in the overall characteristics. Generally Shaolin sets travel in a line, mostly starting on the right, then moving to the left. The Hong Quan that some northern Shaolin traditions/lineages, such the one coming from Huang Bao Shan (1905 - 1998) and the Hong sets practiced by us are very similar to other classical long arm boxing (chang quan) of northern China. What about your set? or is it closer to the one publicized by the modern Shaolin monks?

The northern Shaolin I practice was propagated by the Henan Shaolin Hui, an association formed by a small group of secular and “Lay Buddhists” (upasika) Shaolin practitioner in Shanghai in the early 1900’s.

Your forms list

I was just wondering about your Lian Bu Quan. You said that it had the name Fu Xing Quan (Fu Hsing Chuan). The style that I practice is Northern style shaolin and we also have Lian Bu Quan. It is common in the Northern systems especially among those that were associated with the Central Martial Arts school. However, we also have Fu Xing Quan and it is different from Lian Bu Quan. We have Fu Xing Quan one and Fu Xing Quan 2. When I saw the characters of your forms the Fu Xing Quan is the the exact characters of our Fu Xing Quan. As far as I knew, the only people that practiced Fu Xing Quan 1 and 2 were from my Grandmasters lineage. Please describe to me your fu xing quan.

Fu Xing Quan

Certainly. Most notible of this set are the opening two kicks. Both are in the fashion of the “Crane Kick” legendary to Karate Kid…arms cross in front of chest and block out, extended to sides, followed by a front kick. One such kick with left foot, then a hop and knife hand thrust down into a Kuai Ma crouch. Step/withdrawl back leads to the second “Crane Kick”, this time with the right foot. Spin 180-degrees to the left into Ma Bo and double strike to the sides with elbows.

Does this discribe any of the sets you are fimiliar with? I am very intrigued by the similarity of the characters in the set names. Thanks for the input!