What style of Baguazhang do you do?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

I do Yin style bagua. These are the other styles of bagua I’ve heard of:

1)cheng style
2)wudang style
3)yin-yang style
4)complete techinque style
5)emei style
6)xingyi stlye baguazhang
7)swimming body style*
8)jiulong(nine dragon) style

*the full name of the style I train in is:
Yin Style swimming body baguazhang so I’m not sure that if swimming body refers to Yin style or another style all together.

-In your style do you train:
1)standing postures?
2)singular strikes?
3)changes if so what are names?

also I would be intrested in a layout of your styles like so;

YIN STYLE BAGUAZHANG is set up like this:

-systems Lion(interlocking), snake(moving with the flow of force), dragon(lifting and holding), bear(turning the back), phoenix(windmill), rooster(lying step), unicorn(reversing the body), and monkey(squatting). Each is its own martial system and all the other systems can be found inside each or the other.

-Systems each have 9 standing(non-moving) postures

-of the 9 postures 8 contain striking forces(the 9th is a combo of all 8 forces)

-of these 8 postures there are three truly natural ways to express the force as strikes (24 strikes per system+ some not so natural ways to using that force)

-each of the 8 postures also have 7 changes(7 move forms) in witch the strikes are used in a certain order. so the entire (animal ri-gram)system has 56 changes.

changes are where the other systems come into each other. If you are doing the lion system and you start learning changes for oh, say the “sweeping strike”(the main lion attacking strike) the first change will be the “lion sweeping in the snakes house” or the “sweeping moving with the flow of force change”.

THE ENTIRE STYLE OF YBS HAS:
-72 postures(8 are circle turning postures)
-96+ strikes
-448 changes
-72 leg tech.s(monkey contains most the leg strikes)

I don’t know even an 8th of it. I’m not planing on learning it all either just a couple tri-grams thunder(dragon) and heaven(lion). My master said only to work on one at a time so I’m doing dragon for now.

2

Yizong Gao style.
You are learning Xie Peiqi’s style. Does your teacher insist that you call him master?
Buddy

3

My teacher’s personal style is a combination of 3 lineages, I think. Cheng, Yin-Fu & something else? I have no idea… I haven’t had any real formal training, just a couple of free Bagua lessons after my Taiji class :P.

4

No, He JinBao doesn’t ask to be called master. I guess I’m a bit old school. Too many kung fu flicks, but I feel that as the Yin Style lineage holder he is the master\sifu. since he’s the one I learned everything I know of bagua from I feel that to be the most fitting title. I also don’t like to use sifu because I speek english, not chinease(spelling?). I wish I could, but I don’t have the time for that too. Dr. Xie was He Jinbao’s master before he passed away.

5

Is this style a internal.is it a good kung fu for defense.could you recomend one.

6

yes this is a very good art for defense. If you want to be more defensive than anything else you should try the Phoenix system in Yin style Bagua. The Phoenix’s personality is more intrested in getting out of the way of any incomming blows first and formost, then counter attacking. check out www.traditionalstudies.org/ they list all the studie groups here in the states and have videos, a very detailed history, as well as discriptions of the animal personalitys for the systems that are available.

7

Song “style” :stuck_out_tongue:

8

bagua reminds me of a waiter

9

Jiang Rong-qiao

10

Hay Omar old buddy I woundered how long it would take you to show up. You care to lay out your style as I have? or do you still believe in the close door crap?:smiley:

-oh and note I posted this topic before we got into out chat in the footwork topic, and please no spam just the tipic at hand.:wink:

11

“old buddie” :smiley:

I’m afraid some of that “old closed door crap” is still alive and well although that’s not why I don’t have much to post here. I’m only “in the door” on the Baji side. With bagua I stick to the basics. I’ve had experience with Gao, my original style and Yin through various acquaintences. My current teacher’s lineage comes down fro Song Wei Yi who is a very controversial historical figure. He’s controversial because there are a number of scholars around who think his lineage is made up. He alleggedly met with Dong Haichuan in Beijing in 1876. Most accounts have Dong in Beijing at about that time, give or take a year or two. At the time, Dong suppedly recognized him as a Shixiong. The problem is that this story conflicts with the official record of Dong Haichuan as the sole creator of baguazhang. It goes back to the monk who taught Dong, Bi Deng Xia and the other monk from the San Qing Monestary, Bi Yue Xia.

The only parts of the system I know of personally are those that are common to all lineages. The 8 mother palms. The 64 palm change set, single, double and piercing palm changes. I have seen the deer horn knoves and Song’s favorite weapon the double ended spear. I am aware of many other aspects of the system indirectly though acquaintences. Zhang Xiang Wu who learned it from Song Weiyi along with the Wudang jian, seems to have been very close with Gong Bao Tian. When he felt it important to introduce his little “brother” Liu Yun Qiao to the internal arts, that’s where he took him. A lot of these guys hung out together. General Zhang was in a special position as he was a high ranking government official so he was freed of many of the typical restrictions preventing people of that era from studying under multiple teachers. He was also the vice-president of the Nanjing Wushu Acadamy that was so famous for all the big contests in the 20’s and 30’s.

…it just occured to me there ARE actually a few other details I could add about the “style” (I hate that word in this context)

There is a complete overlap with the principles and theories of taijiquan and the essential sameness is emphasised. It includes use of a 5 element theory and 8 shenfa (bodymethods) which is analogous to the 5 steps and 8 shenfa making up the 13 postures of taijiquan. It’s part of why and 8 step circle is so fundamental.

On a practical down to earth level:

-precision in stepping. Natural should not be confused with random or casual. You learn to step exactly where you wish to step. It also ingrains a 45 degree angle advance and retreat. More extreme angles are trained with the kou bu / bai bu combination. In various changes there are up to 360 degree spins with a single step. There’s no need to walk bigger or smaller circles. When you add in the changes, every angle is there. Also, if you are circling with a partner/opponent and both of you are in the bagua stance hands touching at the wrist…that’s just about as big as the circle is going to be. Your imaginary opponent isn’t in the middle. He’s just across from you.

On a more . . . abstract level:

The system is still structured around the Yi Jing. The cardinal directions have signifigance as do the 5 elements. So while, aftere a certain point you could do a completely free form practice, the core of your practice will always be that same circle.

I have been taught that standing postures is contradictory to Bagua. Bagua is all about training “walking gong fu”. But the big over riding goal, the one that dwarfs all the other techniques and forms in comparison is the unification of jing-qi-shen in all movements and thus the heavy emphasis on muddy stepping extremely slow walking and pre-dawn training.

12

Well this is where the style differences lay as I see it (from what you said):

1)in yin style you are to train standing postures every day for the rest of your life along with your other training. He JinBao says that he likes to do them at the end of his routine, meaning he still trains them. First their were taoist (non-martial) postures that are done to link to chi to the li and so that you obtain health, these postures have been changed to maximise the martial force production.

2)Yin style on the Men Baozheg–Dr. Xie–He Jinbao line doesn’t have “the 8 mother palms”. I have see them in books but we don’t have them. Jinbao mentioned that one of the three basic direction changes (not forms there only 2 moves) is the equivalincy(spelling?) of the single palm change but thats as close as yin style gets, his yin style is not the same as all yin styles he said. So no, the Yin style that I train doesn’t have the 8 mother palms (though most other styles of bagua do).

3)also if you note nowhere have I (on the first post) mentioned the 64 palm sets (nor does the # 64 ever come up)so as far as I know it’s not part of the style either.

4)He Jinbao told us that one day early in his training he saw some people in a park training “muddy stepping” and then he thought he would try it out. He was doing it in class and his teacher asked him what the hell he was doing. He said he saw some people doing it in the park. His teacher got angry with him and told him to go train with them then. So he stopped doing it. One of the other students told him that it’s not part of their style so not to train it. So this is also not in Yin style bagua.

5)we also don’t train walking very slow we walk slow but not too slow. He Jinbao told a cupple students repeatedly to speed up a bit that they were walking too slowly. there were students that had backgrounds in taiji, though they were moving much faster than any taiji player doing slow traing.

The core training methods in Yin style bagau are:
1)postures
2)strikes-there are several method to train strikes
3)turning-changes are contained in turning as “direction changes”

13

Actually you should refer to your style as Xie style. You might want to research more orthodox Yin Fu styles. Mr. Xie formulated himself much of what he called Yin style. Not a critiscim, just a note.

14

I agree with Buddy. Athough history is just that. HIS-story. But you might include in your research, studying the songs. Than you can understand what is different from Xie style compared with Yin Baguazhang.

EDIT: Xie style as you describe it here.:wink:

15

I’ve not heard anything about Dr. Xie changing the training methods. I know that once an artist (martial) reaches a high level in bagua they can arrange the changes as they see fit. Because it’s energy related, the strikes have a bit of flexability as to what strikes come when in the changes(forms). Where did you read that he changed the style? I don’t think there are too many major differances from the Yin styles, from what I understand.

If there aren’t any other “lineage” holders of the Yin style how could his be changed, and from what? As He jinbao teaches Yin fu was Dong Hai-Chuan longest trained disciple, the only who learned all of the art. Including martial, medical, chi gung, and medation. Man Baozheg in turn did the same by learning the entire system and gained the name of lineage holder. Dr. Xie did the same and so as I understand it he trained the same exact style that Dong Hai-Chuan did (pluss a little added hear and there). Infact only disciple to not learn the entire system is He Jinbao. Dr. Xie’s successor was to be a differant student that passed away in '85. Since then he has trained He Jinbao in all the martial (maybe chi gung and or medation too I’m not sure) but He Jinbao didn’t have the time before the Dr. died to learn the medical aspect of Yin style baguazhang. He is the named lineage holder. If this is true (as I presume) than the other Yin styles are infact the ones that come from students that didn’t learn the entire system of bagua, and so they should be the ones to go by their teachers names insted of the title bagua. Being that theirs is not in the lineage line. An example would be that you never heard of any other style of bagua accupunture have you?

I don’t know of any other lineage holders but then I also don’t know of any other Yin styles lines either, but I live in the US so I imagine that they are in China and have yet to come to the west to teach. Unless you can say where you read or heard this I don’t feel it has any validity. Point being that if it really was that different don’t you think that the Dr. would have changed the name himself? Or that Jinbao would have changed it after the Dr.'s passing to honnor him? To me it makes no since to call a style by a name that it’s not called by its successors IMHO.

16

Originally posted by count
[B]I agree with Buddy. Athough history is just that. HIS-story. But you might include in your research, studying the songs. Than you can understand what is different from Xie style compared with Yin Baguazhang.

EDIT: Xie style as you describe it here.:wink: [/B]

But I thought ba gua was ba gua?

Is what He Jin Bao teaches ba gua or not?

Serious inquiry here, not trolling.

17

HIS-story

Dong trained more than 20 and he didn’t train animals or the I-ching for that matter. Yin Fu had a few formidable students too. LOL.

I don’t know Walter, from what I have heard about He, he was a powerful fighter with a background in Hsing-I before he met Xie Pie Qi. What I have seen him demonstrate in public and in video is bagua. I can’t say what or who he teaches. Whether or not Xie was Men’s torch barer is going to be debated for as long as lineage is an issue and people who were there are still alive. But Xie was not a to my knowledge, a student of Yin Fu.

Bagua is Bagua unless you miss the point. All we have to go by left from Dong are the songs. They are very clear about training and practice as well as theory and application. There are certain things that all methods have in common. If they are not common than how can it be called baguazhang let alone Yin Baguazhang?

18

Actually there are a number of different lines of Yin Fu. Ma Shrjing being one. Zhu Baojin teaches another line in Beijing. Black Taoist in NY and Eric Tuttle in Canada each teach a different line. These are orthodox Yin Fu styles. I believe Mr. He learned a Shaolin style before going to Mr. Xie, not Xingyi. There is a great deal of speculation in Beijing as to whether Mr. Xie studied very expensively with Men Baojen or not. I worked with Mr. He and Dr. Xie here in the US (just at a couple of workshops) and I didn’t think it looked like bagua. Just my opinion.

19

?

What’s strange is the lack of “single palm change.”
The last thing I would omit from BaGua practice is
the SPC.

SPC has nearly everything from body method to stepping, body over turn, drill rise fall, can be done with nei or chi gung flavor, moving root, strategy… etc.
I can see this mentally? Can I do it all with SPC? No, otherwise I’d teach and make no money!

Interesting thread though.

20

Count and Buddy,

Thanks for the input.

Buddy, did you mean expensively or extensively, or was that a freudian slip?

Walter