Is anyone familiar with the pakua schools in New York (Check website: www.pakuanewyork.com or www.pakua.org.
These schools (5 in all in NY) wear karate uniforms and teach japanese weaponry along with the traditional belt systems in Japanese martial arts. Are these schools legit? Any input would be appreciated.
Oy ve.
If you’re looking for a pakua school… keep looking. These folks may teach something of value - but their website doesn’t indicate that it’s pakua. (aside from the name)
If you want to learn Ba Gua in NYC look to ONE place. David Chan Bongs on Bowery Street. He brought Master Wong Tsong-Fei to NYC to train exculisvely under hi. Master Wong inherited the Imperial Palace Ba Gua system from Master Kung Pao-Tien who in tern recieved it straight from the source, Founder Tung Hai-Chuan.
Imperial Palace Ba Gua was the Ba GUa of the founder and emperors body guard. There is a lot of Ba Gua out there now because it is becoming popular, but you see guys in magazine balancing weights on their arms while they walk the circle (and its not a circle, the Ba Gua is not round and this is crucial in understanding the walking and hidden kick aspect) and this is 100% against Ba Gua.
Come check out this man’’ school. I have began an Okinawan system when I was 4. Studeid Hung Gar and Wing Chun as well as S. Mantis. My focus is 100% on combat. Health is a side benefit.
I have never seen anyone or a sytem so refined to just get the job done with no BS. Very viscious system. Great teacher, nice students, great atmosphere for learning. Check it out, you won’t be disapointed. Do be aware that as a guest, ceratin things will not be discussed in front of you, but he will answer anything. And is too willing to show it in anction.
PM me and I can meat you and you can come along if interested.
is it real bagua?
I personally went to the school twice. These guys didn’t know who Dong Hai Chuan, Yin Fu and other popular guys were in Pa Kua. I tell you no lies…they had something called shadow pa kua that didn’t look like bagua to me…I personally didn’t see anything that look like pa kua…this is not to insult and spite any one…but i’ve in this for a few years and I’m smart enough to tell when someone is doing pa kua or not.
I mean come on…you’re doing CMA with a Japanese robs and stances???
Oy ve.
Realistically, Urbanfist14 already knows the answer to the school or he wouldn’t have even bothered posting.
EvolutionFist,
No disrespect to your fine teachers, I know about their skills. Not that lineage means much, but I think you need to check out that lineage story. Gong Bao Tien may have met Dung Hai Chuan at the palace, but there is no evidence of him learning from Dung. Your schools sounds very nice but there are more than a couple of excellent sources for bagua in NYC.
count,
i go to the same school as EF and asked a similar question with regards to lineage because i have seen lineage charts and Gong Bao Dien (Kung Pao Tien) is not officially listed as a direct descendant to Dong Hai Chuan, but rather under Yin Fu. the explanation given is that Gong started studying from when he was nine years old and Yin Fu would have been his sihing as Dong was still considered the sifu though perhaps Yin had more contact with him than Dong.
at the school, there are children’s classes during the weekends and one or two of mr. chan’s senior students teaches them. he just oversees them once in a while just to make sure everything is in order. when these children grow up, they will be students under mr. chan’s name, not his senior students who have instructed them about 80-90% of the time.
there are many nuances that books and literature cannot convey and often times, i find that information about martial arts, especially those regarded as “esoteric”, are often skewed or misinterpreted…of course, there are cultural factors that remain difficult to translate as well…
Urbanfist14,
perhaps you should do more research on ba gua/pa kua. the links that these schools have do not seem to have anything to do with ba gua other than, as prairie pointed, the name.
cherrypraxis
I would not totally disagree with that concept except Gong Bao Tien was only 11 when Dong passed. If he did start learning bagua when he was 9 he would have to have been quite advanced to learn from Dong. Yin Fu spent 20 years with Dong but I’m not sure how close to the end of Dong’s life that was. Of course we have to take into account, history is not to clear on this issue. Yin Fu was Gong Bao Tien’s teacher. That is for sure.
The best I could say is come check it out. Then you can see what type of Ba GUa you think it is.
Lineage, books, articles – they don’t mean much to me. While I respect my martial forefathers, I really do, they are not here, my teacher is. His technique is superb. Doesn’t mean anything over the internet, and I know everyone thinks there teacher’s technique is good.
Come check it out, see how it matches up.
count
i will not argue as it seems that this issue is a point of contention. i am quite new at mr. chan’s school; i’ve only been there for a month. from what i understand, mr. chan says whether official or not, this is our lineage. at the end of the day, the verification for such claim is the effectiveness of the concept and technique. different people learn differently and people interpret history differently depending on perspective and agenda, political or otherwise.
it is unfortunate that none of us now living was there to witness how Gong was trained and with whom. we can only assume. i suppose we are liable to make an a-ss out of our selves over this until the end of time…
Cherry God-****-it, you make too much sense. Too practical and wise. And you hit to hard for a girl your size.
You’re no fun and I don’t want to play anymore.
Count, don’t mind me. I’ve always been overly defensive of my teachers. I will say this, any school that willingly says come down and check it, should be taken up on that offer. Not in a Tiger Schulman come see our two for one gi with sign up check out.
But, come and test the technology, talk shop type of come see. Not many schools or teachers willing to do that.
O, well. Peace.
http://www.naturalmartialarts.com/
What about this school? Any opinions?
I was sparring with one of my fellow aikidoka, and he has a bcakground in hsing-i as well. He used some good tactics and his form is very good. Not ready to leap into lessons yet, but shopping around a bit… (ofcourse I will consider Sifu Chan Bong)
http://www.metal-tiger.com/Wu_Tang_PCA/
A friend of mine lives and trains at this school. Any opinions? Frank Allen is the sifu.
It seems very common than Hsing-I and Pa Kau (Ba Gua) are taught together.
What characteristics define the two? Why should I choose one over the other?
Thanks for the help folks!
I would never give my opinion of someone with out first crossing hands with them, because even demstrations can be a bit bias: the person hiding something or making it flashy for commercial reasons.
I will say this, PM me and we can meat up. I’ll bring you to class. You have nothing to loose but a few hours and tons to gain.
I’ve been around the block a few times. I could be training anywhere, Chinatwon is certainly not the most convenient location for me, being its 4 hours of trains and subways back and forth.
There is a good reason why I train here now. I was actually very happy with my old S. Mantis Sifu who is a disciple of an underground Mantis player in Chinatown. A lot of fighting, and I liked the way we trained, all fighting or contact chi sau.
But its the technology that draws me here. Not even the Ba Gua and Hsing-I, but my teachers method. He calls it E-chuan, because he has also studied arts that aren’t known here. His pole being one of them. Its his entire knowledge that I find impressive and its usefulness.
I’m learning Taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua, forget the fancy names, forget the priority of likining everthing in order si I can go to the park and say, “Look at my taiji.”
Its 100% about kicking a$$. Which I like. And internal. Health. Can’t forthet that but I take that for granted at this age.
I would love to see you there.
Peace and good luck regardless. NYC, its pretty much all here, can’t really beat it for anything other than sunshine, warmth and surf. Unless its Sept. and there’s a 8 to 10 foot hurricane swell running.
But I can dream.
Schools…
Shaolin Boxer,
I have honestly been to every internal school in the NYC area. If you have any questions you can ask me. But like EF said, it’s best to go down to the school and check out a class and if possible, see if you can try some things out. However, I still think it’s always nice to have some background on a school or teacher.
As far as the Gong Baotien thing goes… There was a huge debate on the EmptyFlower.com site about this. People have different dates and records for Gong’s birth and the time he trained with Yin Fu. It’s really too hard to prove anything. One thing I can say is that Gong’s Bagua, while somewhat similar to Yin Style, does have things that Yin Style doesn’t. It’s obvious that there is a Yin flavor but I would say that it’s more than just a branch of Yin Fu. Most styles of real Bagua have certain characteristics that make them Bagua. In that they will all look similar. However, as my classmates have stated, the official lineage is:
Dong HaiChuan, Gong BaoTien, Wang ZhuangFei, Chan Bong, Mr. Chan’s students…
If anyone would like any further details regarding our lineage feel free to e-mail, pm or just ask me.
Yes Eight_Trigram_Boxer
I would like to know why Yin Fu is not in your lineage tree. There are many disputes of the year of Dong’s birth but almost all agree he died in 1882. According to Gong Bao Zhai as quoted in the Pakua Journal August 1994 edition, Gong Bao Tien (1871-1943). This is the same as I have been taught too. Again that would have made him 11 years old when Dong Hai Chuan Died. All accounts say Gong learned from Yin Fu. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact. Not that I have any disrespect for your school or your teachers. I know they are the real deal. I am interested in how Yin Fu is not in your lineage tree???
BTW, if anyone is really interested, bypass all the schools listed above and go see Mr Chan. Or go see su Yu Chang or go see Black Taoist, Novell Bell
hey ray, hehe…it never occured to me that you ever “play”…i guess size is an illusion??? hehe
it was nice to push-hands with you today. you made me improvise when you threw in those unexpected hits. i had to block!!! hehe
count:
as ETB poined out, there is debate as to the exact date of Gong’s birth. “official” registries in china can be suspect and it is not uncommon for people to doctor documents. i asked mr. chan about this and he did concur that Gong was instructed for several years and not a mere three. from what i gather, Yin is not in our lineage simply because the disparity of techniques and execution, however minute they seem, have to be accounted for. this disparity exists, documents or no documents. Yin, as well as the other second generation masters, had previous martial arts backgrounds and were older when they began learning ba gua; hence, one can assume that their styles differ from each others’. in this case, Gong, who was trained inside the palace from childhood to “x” number of years, learned what was considered “ideal” by Dong though he probably did have more contact with Yin.
also, i would like to point out that just because the knowledge is popular does not qualify it as truth. this has always been the case, especially in the realm of politics. the practice of martial arts is quite political, whether in history or application. (i.e. samurai, the boxer rebellion, etc.) this is particularly true of ba gua. people trained inside the palace were few and far in between. they were trained differently from those from outside. they were/are, literally, a dying breed and were made that way as the techniques are lethal. with this in mind, there is no surprise as to why the imperial family appointed Dong and his disciples, ba gua practitioners, as the official palace guards.
anyway, like i mentioned earlier, we can parry back and forth about history as interpretations vary from position and perspective, political or otherwise. it is application that we cannot dispute over.
Thank You All
Just would like to take a minute to thank you all for all of your responses. I, like EF, have true respect for all true Martial arts and Artists ( by true, I mean no nonsense, superfluous techniques.) I’ve seen a lot myself and I have a lot to learn. I’ve experienced good and bad teachers, and I’ve learned from both. I believe all Martial arts are good as long as the individual understands the underlying principles and knows how to apply them, in addition to taking responsibility for their actions. One art is not better than another. I myself have not found a teacher whom I am comfortable with yet. I’m very patient in that process but am practicing what I’ve learnt on my own but as anyone with experience knows, you can only go so far by yourself. I wish you all well and always, always practice hard. Martial tradition can only survive with practice and sharing.
Some info…
Count, this is some info I got from Shun Quan over at Emptyflower.com. Since it pertains to our conversation I thought I’d post it here:
"According to Master Wang Zhang Fei, Gong Bao Tian 's 15 years disciple : Gong Bao Tian was first a student of Yin Fu. After admitted to imperial palace, he later was taught by Dong Hai Chuan. Formally he was Yin Fu student first but later he was taught directly by Dong Hai Chuan. With the help of Dong Hai Chuan, a master of masters, Gong Bao Tian was able to elevate to a deeper understanding and ultimately possess unique identity in his lineage which is completely different with Yin Fu style from foot work to hand techniques.
Gong Bao Tian died 194x ( as I recalled, need to check my record later ) around age 85. This will take the year he was born back to 184x. When Dong died, Gong should be around 30 year of age. Where do you get the year of Gong ?
Gong baotian was born in 1871 and died in 1943"
Well, this seems to put Gong in a position to learn from Dong.
Just a thought…
This whole linage debate REALLY spikes me!
Ive seen this in one form or another from many different Bagua practioners yet we all overlook one MAJOR issue. Bagus is designed to be personalised!
You can look at all the major linages of Bagua and see some huge differences between technique and form. What remains the same are the principals.
Dong Hai Chans students were all already masters of other systems, each one of them learnt Bagua and then added it to there previous study.
Yin Fu was a Shaolin man and Cheng Ting Hwa was a Shao Chuoa man.
Its compleately understandable that Bagua would be adapted to each different student.
I would seriously doubt there is any ‘pure’ Bagua as i dont personaly believe that Dong Hai Chan taught form! I think he created various palm changes for various students.
If you dont believe me then someone explain how each of the different linages has a totaly different form?
My theory is that Dong Hai Chan encouraged his students to create there own forms based of his teachings. This would be like there final task before finishing there apprenticeship.
Its also commen knowledge that Dong Hai Chan split succesorship between all of his best students, so why oh why if HE didnt decide on a single succesor are we trying to do so now 200 years after the fact.
This whole rant is just to say im SICK of people trying to say they have the ‘true’ Bagua. Its all relative…
I wont state my full linage out of respect for my sifu but just to drop a little credabilty to my argument.
My sifu is only 3rd generation himself, he was trained by two sifu one 3rd one 2nd (taking this as Cheng Ting Hwa and Yin Fu would be first gen). They both taught him totaly different forms and yet the theorys towards application and power generation remain EXACTLY the same.
Its pointless to argue over who has ‘pure’ Bagua, we should all just be VERY happy to have found such an excerlent and addaptable art.
Besides like it or not history is history and our ancestors wont fight our battles for us!
I know a very respected sifu of a totaly other system who said this to me recently…
Every style is only a method of power generation and mechanics anyone who trys to tell you that only they have the ‘right’ way or the ‘pure’ transmission is proberly running a cult!
Besides i practice Chang Jiang Chaos orginal form as the form part of my training. Ive decided that becouse my form is called the ‘orginal’ then obviously I have the true Bagua and the rest of you plebs are in a Mcdojo:D :rolleyes:
Uh…OK…
Jon,
See, first of all this has nothing to do with you (don’t mean to sound rude) so why are you getting involved? Did I say, oh Jon’s lineage is bs and I think I only have the real Bagua? Second, I don’t claim to be learning pure Bagua or the only true Bagua. Third, since count is my Kung Fu cousin, I don’t see how my Bagua can be more pure than his. We’re just arguing a historical point within our own lineage.
However, I do agree with what you are saying to a certain extent. It is silly for people to argue about who’s Bagua is real and who’s isn’t. Unless they are just blatant fakes. Which we have all come across from time to time.