“for example vic your probably good enough to pick any random technique and spar only that against any of your students doing what ever the like and you can ‘‘finish’’ with just that but the reason you can is your timing ,and footwork,feeling,speed and power have been cultivated to a higher degree.” (Ernie)
LET ME put it this way, Ernie:
Using my timing to deliver what?
Using my footwork to deliver what?
Using my feeling, my speed, my power - to deliver what?
Answer: an efficient technique.
Comes accept is about open up --Wang XiangZai’s open up shock. Goes send is about close/shut down — Gracie’s mount. using the silence to subdue the action is about Micheal Jornadan’s dynamic know where to focus what tools to use when.
There everything can be used, control without control. But saying is much much much easy.
time is a relative term, finished has to take account on your opponents’ skill.
what complicated? what is not complicated?
Hendrik,
Yes your right , you describe the ebbs and tide of a conflict of energy , expand ,contract , seal , surf , borrow, and break [ many different ways to say the same thing ]
But that is not the real point of this thread,
Both masters [ok if they say so!] I’m sure had many years of this training and all the writings, teachings, training methods of the past generations and I’m sure that had a nice accumulation of TECHNIQUES.
But for all this they had no ability to apply and relate , this means this was not addresses in there training , and since they thought and everyone else in that huge crowd thought they were doing great , it leads to a very obvious point , perhaps the OLD MASTERS really sucked at fighting but kicked butt at talking and telling stories ?
Sorties though great for inspiration and entertainment, lacked truth, lacked reality
Yet people are searching for that [SECRET TECHNIQUE OR MASTER WITH THAT TECHNIQUE] like a dog chasing its tail or the hunt for an imaginary treasure.
These masters on this clip had there styles techniques, but the application skills of a child.
Swinging random techniques in the air hoping to land one , sounds a lot the sad case of wing Chun guys when all the do it rush in hiding behind there punches blinded by technique =)
Vic-[ LET ME put it this way, Ernie:
Using my timing to deliver what?
Using my footwork to deliver what?
Using my feeling, my speed, my power - to deliver what?
Answer: an efficient technique.]
Deliver what ever you want really , it’s the skill of getting there that makes what you do when you get there have any value , problem is [not talking about you ,but were cool enough to play this little chess game and be cool about it ] people get all focused on the end and never understand what ti takes to achieve that end , the means ,
When I watch this clip , I see that very clearly , just like today when you watch many TMA it’s very clear =)
“Deliver what ever you want really , it’s the skill of getting there that makes what you do when you get there have any value , problem is [not talking about you ,but were cool enough to play this little chess game and be cool about it ] people get all focused on the end and never understand what ti takes to achieve that end.” (Ernie)
NOW YOUR POINT about people focusing so much on the end but don’t understand how to get there is good. This is true. But what I’m trying to say is that ALL of it is necessary:
The timing, the speed, the footwork, the power, the strategy, the technique, etc.
And it all has to be done in a “live” situation.
valid observation , so what was missing from these old masters training that they had such poor delivery skills ?
they read all there family lineage stories , they had all these generations of piled up information , they probably trained as super secret indoor diciples .
yet a very base and important part of combat is missing !
how can this be since on paper i’m sure they seem so good , how in demo i assume ther were fantastic , how there lineage was sure it was the best , who there students thought they walked on water ,
yet the basic foundation of relating is missing .
what could have been wrong with there training methods that the end result was so empty ?
1, Yes your right , you describe the ebbs and tide of a conflict of energy , expand ,contract , seal , surf , borrow, and break [ many different ways to say the same thing ]---------E
isnt that all what everyone trying to do if cut down all the technics?
2, But that is not the real point of this thread,
Both masters [ok if they say so!] I’m sure had many years of this training and all the writings, teachings, training methods of the past generations and I’m sure that had a nice accumulation of TECHNIQUES.
But for all this they had no ability to apply and relate , this means this was not addresses in there training , and since they thought and everyone else in that huge crowd thought they were doing great , it leads to a very obvious point , perhaps the OLD MASTERS really sucked at fighting but kicked butt at talking and telling stories ? -------------E
I wont comment about masters because there are different grade of so called masters in the same period of time. same school… master can be master of form playing with music to master of not doing anything…etc
I wont judge about masters with my reference either because I am not the universal God standard of martial art. However, I can point out the public general skill masters need to be a master in martial art.
Again, I wouldnt comment on the masters. similar with I wont comment on what happen in a hong kong martial art forum’s discussion on a suppost to be great master, the only one get carry out with a strecher in a taiwan CMA tournoment, due to just taking a kick.
life is changing. people are changing. the world is filled with different human and different incidents. .. and we dont know all the stories , and were not there to know what the heck is going on.
So, what to judge based on our thinking?
that thinking too is changing every day or a few years…
3, Sorties though great for inspiration and entertainment, lacked truth, lacked reality
Yet people are searching for that [SECRET TECHNIQUE OR MASTER WITH THAT TECHNIQUE] like a dog chasing its tail or the hunt for an imaginary treasure.
These masters on this clip had there styles techniques, but the application skills of a child.
Swinging random techniques in the air hoping to land one , sounds a lot the sad case of wing Chun guys when all the do it rush in hiding behind there punches blinded by technique =) ---------E
The secret might be all indoor students were train to identify with Open, Close, lift, Drop instead of Tan Bong Fook and chain punch.
The secret might be indoor students were shown different ways of generating power, accelerate…
The secret might be how to make a form looks good.
The secret might be there are special conditioning of the body. using breathing, using Nim, Yee, …etc
For those who dont know, it is always a secret.
For those who knows there are no secret.
For those who dont believe and thinking they know it all there is always no secret too.
A master degree problem is not a 0 and 1 binary choice with 0 or 1 as answer. between black and white there are a spectum of colors. what do I know? how much do I know? or I just dont know. making myself always 1 and others always 0 is not going to work because sometimes I am 0 too. and beside, I am not the only one who knows things, there are tons of people out there who also knows. That is life.
Hendrik ,
not judging the quality of the masters [as you said they might be great at demo power , or forms , or talking ]
only the simple lack of combat application
people will win and lose in fights this is the way of combat , it’s the skill displayed during that combat , the skill of application , the skill that comes from training methods that have a goal .
these things interest me ,
on this clip it would seem they thought they had this skill enough so that they got in a ring in front of tons of people , this would also mean that there friends , fellow lineage members , other martial artist sifu’s masters and so on also though these guys were fight ready ,
so the assumption that this was a couple of highly skilled fighters for that time , and based on all the generations measuring stick leading up to that time .
yet they sucked ! in the ability to apply all there knowledge and skill
so what was missing ?
may be the question before the timing, the footwork, feeling, speed, power…deliver is------->
what is the others think of doing? there must be a purpose for every step.
and one sees that doing, and one makes use of that doing.
then, one can think about timing, footwork… if the mind is still clear and have time for it.
I was told once there are two things the chinese hold sacred, even over life itself. 1) is gambling, and 2) is secrets, and secret gambling is the ultimate! :rolleyes: 
:eek: 
Ernie,
1, The older I am the more I figure out why “Monalisa’s smile” doesnt see Monalisa’s teeth.
The more i figure out why people dont tell the emperor about his new cloth too.
let the world be a little beautiful.
2, you know that song – I started a joke and make the whole world crying? well, it said, I finally die and the world starts laughing.
you know, it is better one die and the world starts laughing sometimes.
because if we cant change the world we rather leave the world laughing.
3, I think not only me but lots and lots and lots of people since that clip taken instant that sees there is no open, close… but what the heck, let the world happy. you just use your assumption too much. might be right might be wrong but what is that going to do? nothing. the clip is past and not one can change time.
on the other hand, it might help you to make your assumption more if you read about Wang Xiang-Zai’s writting on his observation of CMA decade before that time.
if some one later look at WCK clips and saying whoever preaching WCK’s core key is the magical Tan Bong Fok and chain punch is suck too. but the world will cry. so well, let the monalisa smile without open her mouth. and the world will be happier.
we are not live longer then 100 years so let the world laugh.
I understand , but why live a lie ?
there can be no lies in training methods once you get in front of some one who is really good the truth will set you free / or knock you out
i am only looking at the facts , the men , the training , the results ,
we can all see the , that there is something missing , why should we not use this as a learning reference point
learn from the mistakes or misconceptions of others that thought this was good skill .
so we do not make the same mistake .
really that’s all i’m pointing out , who the men were is not important , the history time frame and trainingmethods compared to the tall tails is very important
alot of fantasy fu my brother 
“valid observation , so what was missing from these old masters training that they had such poor delivery skills ?
they read all there family lineage stories , they had all these generations of piled up information , they probably trained as super secret indoor diciples .
yet a very base and important part of combat is missing!” (Ernie)
I WOULD SAY (as a guess) that they did not spend enough time actually sparring/fighting in a realistic fashion against quality partners/opponents. If they had spent more time doing these things - they couldn’t fail to see that their fighting abilities were lacking - and would (presumably) have taken steps to change the situation.
And I would venture to guess that secrecy had a great deal to do with this…the desire to keep everything so close to the vest actually prevented them from seeing what was lacking in their fighting skills.
I understand , but why live a lie ? ------E
is smoking good for health? Dont live a lie but live knowing the dynamic “balance” of the system. Dont live by book but by reality.
there can be no lies in training methods once you get in front of some one who is really good the truth will set you free / or knock you out ------E
but too bad you didnt live every instant figthing. and no one can never be defeat either.
Truth is fantasy if the society decide to live a different way.
i am only looking at the facts , the men , the training , the results , ----- E
That is great but good only for a machine world. Politics is a big thing about what is the TRUE law of living. Benifit is the goal everyone seek and not the facts. and that is human’s life with SOUL which comes with selfishness little mind.
we can all see the , that there is something missing , why should we not use this as a learning reference point , learn from the mistakes or misconceptions of others that thought this was good skill .
so we do not make the same mistake .
really that’s all i’m pointing out , who the men were is not important , the history time frame and trainingmethods compared to the tall tails is very important
alot of fantasy fu my brother
------ E
Ok,
SAY,
lets tell all WCner you all suck, you all doing stupid wasting time things. your fighting clips sucks and look like those non sense.
just concerntrate on OPEN, Close.. that is the key of the comes acept… see even that Open, close applied in BJJ… those are universal truth.
and the clips is sucks because those two guys doesnt even know about ONE CANNOT simply hitting and knocking and jump in… one needs to OPEN … first!
and be AWARE of your Goat is PUlling your BMW BUSH%%#T and day dreaming…ect
and you know what? the next instant, everyone will send out NINJA to hunt us.
So, Big deal the OPen, close… I still dont have an eye and hand behind my back to watch my safety for me.
The last time MAS OYAMA trying to set a standard he almost get himself assasin. Watch that fighter in the Wind movie.
So, no, we are not going to say the above. let the MONA LISA smile. and life goes on.
how many people read that disclaimer of the health general on the cigaret package and still smoke? That is life bro. and we obviously cant think that we know everything. so, our truth might be also a narrow screw up personal self-rigteous view too. so, let the Mona lisa smile…
you knw silence with a smile is always beautify? that is the Davinci code, I think
Vic ,
so lack of quality partners and sparring experience , but i’m sure they fought before and achieved some level of acknowledgement based on prior fights to get to that large of an event , they had to have done something
yet there sparring didn’t seem to achieve much ?
what might have been missing ? even though the sparred , many people spar today and still suck get all crazy and rush in and crash and then pat themselves on the back and think it was great ,
something is still missing
Hendrik , sir there really only is personal turth in combat , no time for poltics or stories or worring about ninja killers in your closet
there is only the moment and the truth and alot of luck
but we can study this with out any prejudice filter of what we need it to be or wish it to be just see it as what it is , detatch and study and learn
i fear the quality of actual combat application of the old masters was very low , the quality of the guys they fought was very low , sure a few special guys with natural attributes can stand out , but this doesn’t make for a solid training system
so at the risk of breaking a few rice bowls , ask the right questions make honest observations
and really learn from the ego and mistakes and stories of the past , that much is fantasy and don’t base your training on a fantasy
oh wait i think there is a ninja under my desk ---------- oh cool just my cat whew i was scared for a second
well, they send out sexy hot Betty Ting to get Bruce Lee which Bruce got open wide without using his intercept kung fu and cannot refuse to being open wide.
see, Ninja comes with different size and shape. and even Bruce sleep peacefully there on.
hahahaha, what do I know about kungfu, masters, and life? I dont.
I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.
I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.
http://fileserver.uechi-ryu.com/vid…_tourney_hi.asf
http://aznfilms.com/product_info.php/products_id/1408?osCsid=067655515d8917813f66f12061ad4b87
scroll down can click on
FIGHTER IN THE WIND Trailer!
I love movies .. I live in fantasy of crystal clear open close… I love dreams… crystal clear dream state of alpha and theta fill with first and second collision impact.
But only in movie there is crystal clear black and white blue and yellow violate and red… only in the movie.
out from the cinema, i see bright sun light and everything turn into gray under those strong sun light…
and the Monalisa’s smile in silence…
and what does the WC community do to ensure this “quality control”?
first, put AWARENESS back to the system so that it becomes a total quality self-correction always improment system with AWARENESS and feedback.
But will you even buy the first step?
There is knowledge, there is truth, and there is wisdom. Thanks for a rare and precious moment of the latter.
Regards,
screw that i’m throwing mud !