After visiting many different WC clubs including some in Hong Kong, i’ve realized that most of them train the same way they did 10, 20, 30 years ago.
While the world of change has gone past we still remain constant and unchanging.
This has lead to a downturn in membership and interested long time students.
In a world of quick, fun everything WC is still stiff and stubborn.
Do we need to change our approach to teaching and training?
Do we need to make it fun and versatile?
Can we do all this without sacrificing the values or techniques of WC.
After visiting many different WC clubs including some in Hong Kong, i’ve realized that most of them train the same way they did 10, 20, 30 years ago.
Straw man argument here.
A good .sig quote I saw went something like “Everyone thinks 90% of humanity are idiots, but they belong to the other 10%”.
I don’t think the word “most” is really appropriate. “Too many”, perhaps, but not most.
My academy’s curriculum has changed greatly over the 16 years that I’ve been training there, we occasionally wander from our WC roots in the cause of exploration and experimentation, but always return.
If you are interested in performance, you have to continually assess new developments in your field, and related ones, and see if they are applicable to your goals … without jumping on every fad bandwagon that comes along.
My experience of other gyms is very limited but at the gym i train at now it is not at all stiff and stubborn. It is very grueling classes are 1h30min non stop , skip roping, ab work, pad work ,partner drills, sparring etc. But maybe that has to do with the fact that my instructor is very active in tournament and ring competition/promotion. I would recommend dropping by anyone around the toronto area , i belive its a new gym just opened up around jan/feb 05
Mannie : Do we need to change our approach to teaching and training?
Of course things should and will change with the times, if modern training methods have something to offer of course we should use them. If the old methods are better, we should stick to them.
Mannie : Do we need to make it fun and versatile?
Er, no. Changing wing chun into a fun activity is a load of bollocks if you ask me. There are a million and one fun activities in the world, if i wanted something fun to do i’d go kick a ball around a park, hang out with your mates or maybe even a girl! judo is a really great fun. I mean i have fun in wing chun class sometimes i get on well with my teacher and class mates, its not all doom and gloom we have a laugh it’s a good atmosphere, but it’s not inherently a fun activity. It’s quite a cerebral martial art, and fighting isnt a fun thing its very sobering and can be gruesome. I love it for other reasons than fun. Wing chun is already very versatile, that’s cool i thing thats something that should be encouraged, taking it in different directions eg street reality or even sport fighting or whatever peoples interest is. But, the basic thing is stick to wing chun and what it’s good at, not some bs.
Mannie : Can we do all this without sacrificing the values or techniques of WC.
Good luck if you can, i guess that’s the trick isn’t it.
I would have to agree that changes need to be made in some Wing Chun circles
I have been studying JKD for some time now and we have a few Wing Chun Tech. in it, One day I decided to sit and watch a couple Wing Chun classes and I was not impressed with this particular group no cardio unrealistic drills everybody standing still while the other guy advances, punching in the air, everybody seemed to be out of shape even the instructor. Too much talking, it would work great just tell the other guy to stand still so I can hit you. No wonder Bruce quit.
It seems to be a dying art and that is sad
Do you guys really believe fighting flat footed as I have seen Wing Chun guys do, or do you believe moving on the balls of your feet helps you move quicker. There is no way that Wing Chun could be quicker than say Karate’s footwork.
The thoughts in your statement here Flash reflect your narrow understanding of WC. In the WC I practice it is not about having faster footwork or faster kicks/punches etc… but more about timing, distancing, occupying space ,balance/mobility and moving when one is supposed to move. Fighting flat footed is a NO NO yes, but constantly moving around, bouncing up and down and such is a waste of energy and effort also. There has to be a happy medium. In my system we use lateral movement 95% of the time, this way we are out of range of the opponent’s movements and to the side of them, only in range for two of their weapons not all four, and also in range to simultaneously attack them. This is efficient and effective, and not based on how fast the footwork is. The Neutral Side Stance where the feet are side by side shoulder width apart is used only outside kicking range, to allow this lateral movement. Energy coming towards you, whether it is a train on the tracks or a grappler trying to shoot for you, only moves in one direction, when you move to counter that attack they have to temporarily stop and adjust to that movement, this is when you attack with your own counter (this is if you let your opponent attack first). Much more can be said on this topic, look for previous posts, I just recently started a thread entitled “Wing Chun Side Step”, look up that one and follow the link for more info on how we move and fight, also check out my Sifu’s website for video links.
Yes this is a true statement, but not all movement is the same or has the same effect…
There are many variations of WC/VT/WT, and IMO not all of them are equal or the same. Most of this is the fault of Yip Man since he didn’t care much for teaching, he did so anyway he felt, unfortunate for us now.
Wingchun is a complete style. Most people just don’t practice hard or long enough to make it work for them at a masters level. Now these same people call themselves masters/fighters. When people see and here these wanna be masters, they judge wingchun as an art harshly. That would lead someone to think that wingchun is incomplete. It is NOT. The so called masters are incomplete. That is the problem. The sytem is perfect. Knowing all the moves in the system is enough for you to begin teaching it but far short from mastery.
PLease don’t let weak ass masters ruin your perception of wingchun. Many times what these guys are teaching is just a shadow of the true art because these so called masters only have a surface level understanding of how to actually USE what they know on a resisting opponent.
How true about resisting opponents, What Wing Chun style is the most realistic I would like to learn more of the system than JKD has to offer. I do not want to get into a Sifu bashing debate please. The style I watched was William chueng style BUT I do not base what I have seen from one teacher I am sure it was just a bad day or something like that. So could you tell me a good Wing Chun style.
Check out this site. www.sifugrados.com. He is one of the few true fighting wingchun masters. He flows with his techniques in an agressive controling way. He is also a very strong grappler(blue belt in jujitsu). I think the site and videos speak for themselves. He has many videos for sale that show direct applications of the forms in fighting situations. He is friendly to new poeple and if you have experiance he will let you spar right away. He is willing to spar new people at well but first he likes to see you get past some of his students. No one ever does.
(guy in the left corner):Cheung is the best!
(guy in the back):My sifu’s the best!
(guy in the right corner):Moy family is the best!
(guy over there):Leung Ting for life!
(guy in the front):where’s my beer? I ordered it 15 minutes ago!
Noone could ever tell you what a good “style” of Wing Chun is.
Want to see if what an instructor has to offer is any good? Research Wing Chun, the different styles and ideas behind it. Watch a class…and join for a bit. If over a few classes, it doesn’t vibe with what you want - an instructor using the skills they have aquired in a “test environment” where there are resisting opponents (you could always volunteer for that position) - then quit and go somewhere else. If you don’t want to put in the time to do the research, go train something else.
Some instructors are happy with what their Sifu gave them and stick with just that. Some instructors push the limits on their knowledge and experience. Some are very traditional - studying only the forms of Wing Chun and the techniques only taught. Some instructors dabble in other arts to keep what they have fresh. Some mix.
So, find a teacher that resonates with what YOU want. Noone could ever recommend a “better” style of family. Just because I saw this guy down the street doing TKD and he totally sucked doesn’t mean that I am invincible against a spinning roundhouse coming at 140mph!
This is a loaded question. Ultimately, as I did, you have to investigate for yourself. When I first started training in WC there was little to no media coverage on what I was training in (TWC), only what GM Cheung had published. Most everything out there was what we call “Hard” Style Wing Chun, most characterized by the pigieon toed stances and all that. So I’ve had plenty of education in those systems, never mind the personal one on one meetings I have had over the years of teaching WC to whomever came into the kwoon. Nowadays it is so much easier with the internet to “wet the whistle” in regards to information on the various WC systems out there today. The only lineage I would not recommend is the Wang Kiu one (sorry Ray). I used to receive the newsletter from one of the memebers of this forum (YongChun), and although it was a well published newsletter, the techniques described and shown were not very effective in my book. Besides my own lineage I like EBMAS, Gary Lam/WSL, Cheung style, and HFY Wing Chun (although there is no video of this lineage available, just the book “Mastering Kung Fu”). Try to download the 1999 Ving Tsun museum video’s from Hong Kong, these will show you allot of the senior Yip Man students on display, you will get a good perspective there on who has the goods.
JAMES
If you ever get to touch hands with Ray or anyone else from the Wang Kiu lineage, I recommend it. Victoria, BC is not too far to travel. Each lineage has lots to offer, including that one. I’ve touched hands. And seen the videos too!
FLASH
Touch hands with as many people over your lifetime as you can. If you can let go of your ego and observe what someone else has, it will make you a better practicioner and human being.
Guys you are getting away from what this topic is all about.
Some of you still believe that you need to be instructor or master level to be competent in a self protection situation.
This is the old mentality.
This is when fine motor skills (that takes forever) instead of gross motor skills is taught first. Gross motor skills is what everyone (even instructors & masters) use 100% of the times in a self defence situation.
This is very a very wrong and selfish way to be taught. Unless you are training for art reasons only.
Also dont forget that motion beggets motion.
This means that it is easier to change a course of a motion than to inniciate it.
So being mobile is not burning energy, being mobile is being ellusive and being prepared.
