ATTN: Everyone

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

You’re all Wing Chun students [hopefully!]

I’m thinking of starting Wing Chun, there are a few schools in my area so I should have a choice.

What do I look for in a teacher/school, besides the obvious? Any subtleties that I should recognise, any flaws that are recognisable as the trademark of a bad teacher?

I know enough about Wing Chun to know I want to study it, but not much about specifics - forms, methods of training, terminology etc.

This isn’t a troll - it’s a serious question, so I want no politics or infighting between people, OK!! :slight_smile:

All help will be much appreciated!

Delicate.

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Hey Delicate sound, I have had to look for a new school recently, and have been to a couple of other schools and to be honest with you it is tough. There are a lot of people, atleast in my area who are not trained as well as they claim or by whom they claim, some of them sort of bought thier instructorships, etc… The good thing about WC is you can find out who the instructors sifu was and do some research, and by all means check thier background a little bit, not out of respect for the sifu but to make sure they are what they say they are. Otherwise if you are familiar with WCs’ principles, just pay attention to what they are teaching. Where are you located?

3

i’d recommend this: find out who the instructors are and ask around here to get an idea. obviously, ignore the trolls, but people like sihing73 and such know way too much for their own good and can offer a long of info. also, if you’re into a specific lineage, i’d check with that lineage’s organization to make sure that the instructor is on the up and up with their own family.

for example, if you’re up for WT and in the states, check the IWTA-North America Section at http://www.leungtingwingtsun.net/branches.html for schools, or www.ewto.com for schools elsewhere in the world (especially in europe).

for TWC sifus, check out www.cheungswingchun.com for his authorized students.

the list goes on, but i’d recommend checking out quality of sifu more than lineage.

4

Why?

Hi DS,
Any particular reason that you want to start Wing Chun?
Does your current style not already cover most of what WingChun contains?

Please note this is in no why a dig at wing chun as I have deep respect for the style.

regards
Colin…

5

Short Answer

Hello,

The advice given is already good so I will make a quick offer of my meager advice.

When looking at a Wing Chun school you should look at the instructors attitude. Is he someone who has an ego if so you may wish to go elsewhere. Some ego is good but I am sure you will be able to spot the warning signs on your own. I am talking aobut the guy who stresses how his method is the best. This typ often is not as good as they think and may use excessive contact to bolster their ocnfidence.

Is what they do efficient? Do they understand and know how to utilize the most efficient angle to generate the most power with the least effort? I had a student who left when I stopped teaching who went to another Wing Chun school. He related to me that the Sifu could get him every time but he could feel what was being done, he just was not good enough to stop them, but there was no mystery. He then told me that when I did it it was like “feeling silk” I got him but he had no clue as to how I did it.

What are the senior students like? Do they have egos, this is a sticking point with me? Do they help their juniors?

How clearly is the explainations of the techniques?

Each and every lineage has pros as well as cons. I would not make a choice based on lineage alone, unless I had some reliable reason for doing so. I would rather check out a few different lineages and see which one worked best or suited me better.

Just some ideas of the top of my head.

Peace,

Dave

6

Not to **** anyone off but I wouldnt go to a school that excercises half or more the class…

My sifu and I dont even exercise…he told me his class is wing chun time, if I want to be in good shape I have to do that on my own time.

I like that…

7

How about Wing Chun exercises?

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When I said exercise I ment push-ups,sit-ups,stretching like woah,etc…

That isnt wing chun…

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Woah! Major response here people!

Firstly Colin:

The style I do now is great. I change styles a lot, and I haven’t been as happy with one in a long time. The problem is, it’s still not perfect for ME. IMHO, it’s a little too fitness based [MJ - I completely agree], and a LITTLE too contemporary. Just a little :slight_smile: Its d*mn fine, but I’m still not 110%. After all, I might find that I come back after one session. I won’t know until I try.

I’m still only 17. I know that I will be doing Martial Arts for the rest of my life. I want to try as many styles as possible, so that when I find the one that is perfect for me, I can have 50+ years of mastering it.

Dave, Rubthe, Red5, MJ - cheers for all the advice. I agree about the etiquette etc. Rubthe - I’m in England, SOT. Do the same rules of finding who taught who apply?

BTW guys. I know about WingChun’s principles [centreline, full force etc], but nothing of any specific lineages [obv. Yip Man!] to tell the truth. Is there anything I need to know? Is JKD better [nobody tell me “its a concept!!”] ? Is most WingChun a McDojo environment? What is the sparring usually like?

All help is MUCH appreciated… :smiley:

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Um… ATTN: Everyone…? As in HELP!!! :smiley:

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JKD is watered down Wing Chun with more styles added to it…

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Re: Woah! Major response here people!



After all, I might find that I come back after one session. I won’t know until I try.

If you were considering giving up Wing Chun after just one lesson, I’d suggest you look carefully at what attracted you to Wing Chun in the first place and then decide whether it was the style itself or something about the school where you had one lesson that was the reason for wanting to give it up so quickly.



I’m still only 17. I know that I will be doing Martial Arts for the rest of my life. I want to try as many styles as possible, so that when I find the one that is perfect for me, I can have 50+ years of mastering it.

You want to try as many styles as possible. How long does it take to decide whether a style is not perfect for you? Just one lesson?



Rubthe - I’m in England, SOT. Do the same rules of finding who taught who apply?

It’s rubthebuddha’s question, but I’d just say why wouldn’t it apply in the UK too?



BTW guys. I know about WingChun’s principles [centreline, full force etc], but nothing of any specific lineages [obv. Yip Man!] to tell the truth. Is there anything I need to know?

Keep in mind that many people defend their own lineage religiously, in many cases running down other lineages.

You know the Wing Chun principles, so use them as your guide and if a lineage teaches in accordance with those principles, it should be OK.



Is JKD better [nobody tell me “its a concept!!”] ?

If we thought so, we’d be on the JKD forum instead of the Wing Chun forum.



Is most WingChun a McDojo environment?

A lot is. If possible, choose one where you’re getting at least some individual attention from the Sifu during most lessons, and are not totally taught by Sihings.



What is the sparring usually like?

It varies. Some schools spar and some don’t. My opinion is that if you’re going to spar, you should have a good grounding first, otherwise you’ll just revert to non-Wing Chun techniques, which teaches you nothing.

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hi delicate sound! i think ur in a very ‘busy’ area for wing chun! Stoke’s not that far from the ghetto that is Wolverhampton :smiley:

Really i think that you have to try out some schools and see. You say that you already know the principles etc. so why not see if the schools near you teach you those things (and how to use them). If not then why not? There is a lot of scope with wing chun, lineage and attitude plays a part, so i think you just have to find what suits you best.

Also it depends on the attitude of the teacher, but also look at the seniors and see what they are like. Do they have a good level of skill and attitude etc? Or do they just beat the juniors down?

I think the class is just as important as the skill. That way you will learn better, or should i say learn to think for yourself.

As regards to sparring - personally, i would much rather have a good grounding first, by doing forms and understanding the principles, when to use energy… in Chi Sau before i get in to the really ‘sparring/fighting’ part, but i am sure other people have different ideas.

the thing i have noticed, in training many different styles, is to stick with them for a while. Decide what you are looking for (i’m sure you already know) and then try to find it. Don’t be too quick to judge. A few lessons won’t tell you everything, it’s only through understanding the principles that does. That only happens after you have spent time training though.

good luck :wink:

david

14

UPDATE

OK - Update:

I went to the Wing Chun school. It was all nice and clean out front and pretty well equipped inside. Only one heavy bag for 14 students, but I was OK with that.

I sat and watched for the whole hour, and they did warm ups, forms, hand work, stretching, leg work than stomack exercises and conditioning. No sparring.

It didn’t look like a McDojo [the Sifu looked OK] and the juniors were well looked after.

If at any point I do want to change - this is where I’m going to.

Thing is - I don’t think its my style that is my “problem”, more the methods of teaching. My style is great, at my school we are taught very well, but we are “drip-fed” information. Now I know many people like this, as it means that you progress gradually and get a good basis for higher techniques.

Problem is - I HATE IT. Completely. I’ve always been the same in life. My guitar tutor taught me a few chords, and I’d come back the next week having not practised them. Instead I’d been learning the lead solo to Clapton’s Layla. :slight_smile:

This is the same reason I hated Jujitsu, and why I loved Judo [I could learn what I liked within reason]. It’s my incessant thirst for knowledge :rolleyes: :smiley:

I’d like to say thanks for all the advice and help on this page [you WC guys aren’t so bad after all :D] and I’m glad I got so many responces.

I’m going to stick where I am and try and get some “higher learning”. David you were right - I should give it some time.

I’m going to post a thread on the main forum about supplementary methods of teaching [when I did Judo I bought over 30 books!!!] so if anyone has any good ideas - please post! :slight_smile:

Red5, Rubthe, Colin, Sihing73, MJ, GM, David:

Thanks again for all the help - DelicateSound!

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Delicate Sound:

no worries mate :slight_smile:

i’ve noticed that when my Sifu shows us all soemthing, everyone sees something different (some the hands, some the feet, some the way he uses his energy etc.) and i think it just depends on how long you have been training. I really think that if you give it time, and really try to understand what you have been getting shown, you will reap the rewards!

— maybe i should listen to my own advice :stuck_out_tongue:

david

16

It is a sad fact that many schools of WC in the UK are mcdojos.

The chisao and sparring are poor, and the concepts are often poorly taught and understood, if taught at all.

A couple of things to look out for, reiterating what others have said. Lineage is important, particularly in the UK, I know of at least two individuals who have undergone two or three years proper tuition, then set themselves up as “Masters”. There is nothing in UK Law to stop people with no experience at all fraudulently claiming abilities and teaching skills that they dont have. Well, at any rate the police are about as likely to prosecute a fraudulent kf instructor as they are an astrologer. If there is a claimed lineage, ask about it, ask to see a certificate. Maybe post the info here, so we can see if anyone has heard of the lineage or instructor.

Many lineages emphasize different things. Some are more defensive than others, some are more aggressive. If you want to learn to fight, go for an aggressive interpretation of WC. If you want to learn to defend yourself, go for an aggressive interpretation of WC. :wink:

The school you went too sounds slightly strange, but not uncommon. Warm ups? You don’t need to warm up to do wing chun. Same for stretching, no one is asking you to kick to the head, or do the splits, or bend your legs behind your ears. You get all the circulation and blood flow you need from the forms.

Depends by what you mean by hand and leg work. Do you mean chisao? If there is no free chisao, leading to chisao/sparring, then forget it. If the school does not train in a realistic manner, then there is no point in going. If no one ever gets a cut lip, bruise, or bloody nose, then it is not worth it. You have to learn what its like to get hit, without gloves on, in a controlled environment. Otherwise, what will happen when you get hit on the street?

A agree completely with what Sihing73 said. The level of ego of the instructor and senior students is vitally important. If there are any aggressive moves towards beginners, or attempts to dominate and impress others with strength or ability, forget it. You are not entering a cult, you don’t automatically have to respect and kowtow to seniors, respect is earned, based on decent treatment of others.

Do the senior students help the less advanced, or are they stuck in a clique by themselves? Does the instructor spend time with the beginners, or just the seniors? How many people in a class? What is the ratio of instructors to students? Obviously the higher the better.

Does the instructor chisao with the students? You will be surprised at how many don’t. Does he ever get challenged?

Is there a friendly atmosphere in the club? Could you make a joke, or would you get thrown out for it? And the acid test, could you make a joke at the instructors expense? :wink:

Is the instructor approachable? Could you ask a question about something you didnt understand? If you did, but didn’t get an answer, forget it. You are paying good money to learn a skill, if the instructor won’t teach you, why are you there?

How much time is spent training, how much is spent doing none WC related exercises, eg. pressups, situps. There is no point paying good money to do something you can do yourself at a gym or at home. If you are paying to learn WC, you should be learning WC!

And of course, there is money. If you have to pay every time you learn a new move, form, reach a “level”, or a new grade, or require a new belt, forget it. Sounds stupid? Believe me, it goes on. Be aware that some schools ask for direct debit monthly payments, personally I prefer to pay when I have a lesson, and don’t wish to have to fork out when I can’t attend.

Does the instructor teach private lessons? Providing the cost is not too great, a mixture of privates and normal classes is the best way to improve. The one-on-one lessons can give you the detailed attention you need, and the normal classes give you the yardstick to gauge your improvement, and the range of opponents of different abilities, strengths, and, importantly, heights.

And the number 1 thing to look out for? Wing Chun is kung fu, and like all good kung fu, power comes from the ground, via the stance. If they have no emphasis on stance, forget it.
If they have stances during the forms, but lose them when fighting “for mobility”, forget it.
If they emphasize upper body strength and speed rather than structure and stance, forget it.

Think of Yip Man, could you do the moves you are being taught when you are 50, or 60, and lack the strength and speed of youth? If not, you are a looking at a short term skill.

As I’m in the London area, I can’t recommend any Midland clubs, but I wish you every success with finding a good school.

Regards
Frank

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Frank Exchange

A quick note to FE. I train with the Kamon Martial Arts Federation.

In a two hour class we’ll start with a little stretching and then do maybe 15 mins of exercises. Personally, I think it’s important to make sure you’ve loosend up ankles, knees, arms. With regards to a previous thread on what is ‘natural’ in WC, the stance (and moving in it) takes time for beginners to get to grips with. Aching legs ache less with stretching:)

I spend all day behind a desk, then sit on a train to get to my WC classes. Doing the first form at the beginning of class is great, though whether this alone prepares you for the movement found later on in the class is debatable. So… we warm up.

As for the exercises, this too is important IMHO. Overweight WC students never looks good, and, as my instructor, Kevin Chan says, a martial art is about the “complete package” - good technique/structure, knowing when to use it, keeping fit, and, of course, being mindful of others.

Don’t know if you’ve ever seen/participated in any of our classes, but the things you mentioned (in relation to what a good WC class should have), can be found in our classes.

:smiley:

I admit, if all you do is exercise and no WC, that would be a p*ss poor class. We can of course do exercise on our own. We also, in class, do punches from YGKYM (single and multiple punches and punches against a partner - with a pad, and with movement).

This in itself is exercise, and tests punch power, structure… and gives Sifu a chance to make sure you’re not punching with bad technique.

Our classes, during such exercises, are a sweaty place to be (maybe I’m just unfit :-)… and most lessons involve “a few” bruises to boot. If people are scared to exert themselves and take a few knocks, go join a chess club.
:smiley:

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The “drip feeding” teaching methods are a problem nowadays!

Since the incorporation of grading systems into many chinese arts, it is becoming far more common to hear comments such as yours.

“I’ll teach you everything you need for your next grade, but thats all”

But if you are a fast learner, or just more committed, then being told that you cannot learn additional techniques until your next grade really is wasting your time.

The instructor will hold a grading every 3/6 months, but if a student works harder than another they are not rewarded with more knowledge, but are instead left waiting for the others to catch up.

The grading system has taken over!

We also (obviously) use the same grading system, but we try to teach students to their ability.
If a student is progressing well, it is folly to restrict their learning, as they will end up looking elsewhere for the knowledge they want.

This being said, a teacher should not “give away” his knowlwdge too quickly, but should instead taylor the training to each student.

Obviously if the classes are small, then this is easier to do. Maybe you could mention to your instructor that you desire to learn more.

On a different note I agree that too much fitness training in class is wrong.

“Teaching” pushups, situps, squat thrusts etc. in a kung fu class is not teaching kung fu.

We must all have a certain level of fitness to perform our art, but to attend a 1 1/2 hour kung fu class, and spend 45 mins doing gym/circuit excercises is I believe a cop-out on the part of the instructor.

It is far easier to get a class to run up and down doing situps, then it is to teach them a technique correctly.

We always do a decent warm up, (maybe 15-20 minutes) but the excerises are designed to be more than just circuit training. ie. we will do 50 pushups, but they will be 10 palms, 10 finger tips, 10 three knuckle, 10 phoenix eye, 10 back of wrist etc.
So you are specifically training tools that will be used in your kung fu.
If this is not the case then you may as well go to the local gym for a work out!

As for looking as other styles. I do agree with DS really! You should look at other styles, as each is personal and may or may not suit an individual.

However stick at one style for a while then you will have something to compare others to.

I studied shotokan for several years (and dabbled in a few others) before i found what suits me the best.

good luck!!
Colin…

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Colin - where do you train?

So, where do you train in London?

We also do push-ups on the knuckles, as well as centre line push-ups. Punching the pads also helps with conditioning - very easy to split skin if the angle of your fist is wrong.

Pads is also a good example/method of learning how to punch, well, that is to say “land”, with the whole fist.

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Black and Blue and Colin

>> Doing the first form at the beginning of class is great, though whether this alone prepares you for the movement found later on in the class is debatable. So… we warm up. <<

That is why we do all the forms at the beginning. SLT trains your stance, gets your circulation going, warms up the arms, Chum Kui gets your legs moving, is a bit more aerobic, gets the blood pumping, then you have Biu Jee, by far the most energetic. If someone still needs to warm up after this, then they are an exceptionally cold individual! :slight_smile:

>> As for the exercises, this too is important IMHO. Overweight WC students never looks good, and, as my instructor, Kevin Chan says, a martial art is about the “complete package” - good technique/structure, knowing when to use it, keeping fit, and, of course, being mindful of others. <<

To be honest, I dont particularly care whether someone looks good when they are doing WC, I am concerned whether they can fight.

This may well be a difference in emphasis between our schools, I come from the Wong Shun Leung lineage, WSL was insistent that WC was simply a skill to be learned, a complete fighting system, rather than a martial art.

I agree that general fitness is important from a health point of view, but an overweight drunkard in a pub can still hit **** hard, and I would rather spend my time (and money!) learning to deal with people who want to hit me. :wink: For fitness, I go running and sprinting, and lift weights, but in my own time. Some of our best students dont do a **** thing fitness wise, but spend all their spare time in chisao. They are the ones to watch out for.

I wonder whether its maybe a Hong Kong thing, we train in the same informal way as the WSL schools I’ve seen in HK.

With regard to belts and rankings, some schools take it to extremes. We are traditional in that, we have no grading system at all, if you want to know how good someone is, then have a go with them. :slight_smile: As WSL used to say, it is not important how senior you are, it is how good you are!

We teach as fast as a student can learn, which takes into account the obvious fact that some learn a lot faster than others. Some are naturally good at WC, others (like me) have had to spend a lot more time on the basics before moving on. ****, when I think how long it took me to get turning right… (and turning left, for that matter :wink: )

I dont really see the advantages of having a grading system, maybe someone could list some? The only one I can think of is when the class is large, or the instructor has many schools, it might be a useful way of reminding him the current level of a particular student, if there are simply too many to remember individually?

There certainly are schools which drip feed the knowledge, with the justification that the student will learn when the instructor thinks they are ready, and even worse, those that think the student will eventually work it out for themselves. And then wonder why there are so many variations in WC today!
I think that this sort of thinking is out of date, we are no longer living in a traditional chinese society of a hundred years ago.

B&B, I have been to two Kamon demos but never seen a class in action.