In honor of T’s revelation that all fighting WCK is Caveman WCK I thought I’d start a thread just for those brave Cavemen who are banging it out Caveman style… Ugh!
Let’s keep in mind there are no shades of gray just black and white.. (so all these clips represent the same Caveman level)
I wonder if they all use Geico…Hmmm…
Here’s new stuff form those crazy Astonians, I think.. 
And some Hungarian Cavemen:
Heading over to the West now…
Here go some Columbian Cavemen…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBrZ55sbY1Y
And of course our very own USA East Coast Cavers.. :D:cool::eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGFOJkZa1ic
And a new clip:
It’s great these guys actually spar with some real intensity, and I give them all the props for that. The problem is that they are not critically analyzing their performances – asking themselves some important questions. And without that analysis, they just keep doing the same-old, same-old, never really improving. It’s the same in BJJ, it’s not just rolling (though rolling is critical) but rolling analytically.
A very big part of training like a fighter is learning to think (analyze) like a fighter. Some people are naturally better at this than others. But it can be, like most other things, learned and trained. To learn and train it requires that your instructor/trainer has that ability, and through his criticism of you, through his analysis of your performances, etc., you see what he is doing, and pick up how to do it for yourself.
A very big problem for the WCK/TMA brainwashed is that this analysis never takes place. They are guided by grandmasters, masters, sifus that tell them what they should be doing (according to their fantasy theory) when they can’t do it themselves, they have cognitive dissonance and can’t see objectively what is really happening but look at everything through rose-tinted glasses, etc.
Brainwashing actually exists? lol!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;806612]
A very big problem for the WCK/TMA brainwashed is that this analysis never takes place. They are guided by grandmasters, masters, sifus that tell them what they should be doing (according to their fantasy theory) when they can’t do it themselves, they have cognitive dissonance and can’t see objectively what is really happening but look at everything through rose-tinted glasses, etc.[/QUOTE]
I was going to leave this thread alone, but this quote really got to me lol!
I can only presume that the Grandmasters/Masters/Sifus that you mention all live in a fantasy world and that you yourself have had a bad experience of this kind in the past. Would this be true?
Because if you have never been a ‘student’, how can you make these mad presumptions?
I do really feel for you beacause I can see what you’re saying only too clearly as I studied and trained Martial Arts to learn ‘how to’ teach and preserve what I saw. I had no interest in fighting whatsoever.
However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??
Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?
I’ll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;806620]
Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?
I’ll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you have the slightest idea what the context of this thread is about Tiger..
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;806620]
However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??
[/QUOTE]
T…
You see you will find many a TCMA that agrees with your assesment in this matter.. What does that tell you?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;806620]I was going to leave this thread alone, but this quote really got to me lol!
I can only presume that the Grandmasters/Masters/Sifus that you mention all live in a fantasy world and that you yourself have had a bad experience of this kind in the past. Would this be true?
[/QUOTE]
No. I just came to realize that fighting skills come only from fighting, not from unrealsitic exercises. And since almost no one in the TMAs has much in the way of quality sparring, they can have very little in the way of skills.
If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters.
Because if you have never been a ‘student’, how can you make these mad presumptions?
Because the training methods of TMAs can’t produce good levels of skills. How do I know that? Because we knowfrom evidence (people who really can fihgt very, very well) and from science (studies of motor skill, sport, etc.) what sorts of training does produce significant gains in open skills.
I do really feel for you beacause I can see what you’re saying only too clearly as I studied and trained Martial Arts to learn ‘how to’ teach and preserve what I saw. I had no interest in fighting whatsoever.
So what you learned to preserve is all fantasy stuff. Traditional jiujitsu is still being learned and preserved. None of them can grapple at asignificant level, none of them can compete with people who train in functional martial arts (arts that use functional training methods). But it is still being learned, preserved, etc. So is folk dancing.
However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??
And thegrandmasters, masters, etc. would do just as, if not more, poorly.
The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym. Bring in a decent MMA fighter and see how grandmaster/master/sifu can do is sparring.
Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?
I’ll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer…
Who do I have to be? Do I have to be a grandmaster with little to no skills? I’m just a student of the game who no longer buys into the delusion, the fantasy.
Obviously this is pointless
“I don’t think you have the slightest idea what the context of this thread is about Tiger”
Why don’t you explain this to me Yung Chun, as I’m sure other ‘newbies’ may also like to know!
“If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters”
Yep! No probs. I’ll just travel back in time with a DVD Camcorder lol! Be reasonable here as many older generations have had their fun and may not be willing to ‘av it’ at a local club these days. Once you hit fifty and have grandchildren you may think differently.
“The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym.”
This comment made me giggle the most as you speak of ‘truth’ lmao! What TRUTH? That what you’re doing these days is no different to Chinas Martial History?? That you’re no further down the road than Bruce Lee was in the seventies?? Once these fighters retire from the ring, undoubtably badly damaged, what will they do?
I was going to leave this thread alone
You will wish that you had.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;806685]"“If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters”
Yep! No probs. I’ll just travel back in time with a DVD Camcorder lol! Be reasonable here as many older generations have had their fun and may not be willing to ‘av it’ at a local club these days. Once you hit fifty and have grandchildren you may think differently.
?
[/QUOTE]
If we never see them fight, then how can we say they have any fighting skills? Because they talk a goodgame, because of stories, becuase they gave themselves titles, because they can demo or perform unrealistic exercises like chi sao well?
It’s a question of evidence versus conjecture.
“The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym.”
This comment made me giggle the most as you speak of ‘truth’ lmao! What TRUTH? That what you’re doing these days is no different to Chinas Martial History?? That you’re no further down the road than Bruce Lee was in the seventies?? Once these fighters retire from the ring, undoubtably badly damaged, what will they do?
The truth about your level of skills, how well your training is working, etc. China’s martial arts history is mainly myth and stories. I believed in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus too – when I was a kid. As an adult, and someone who thinks critically, I don’t believe things absent evidence.
I don’t know what you mean by “no further down the road than Bruce Lee”. Of course we are. People today know how to train better, have much better ideas of what is or is not functional (because we can see it for ourselves), the ground games have exploded, etc. Bruce was no doubt on the right track – he realized the severe limitations of the traditional mindset and traditional methods of training, and approached his training from an athleltic, modern functional standpoint.
You rely on many of old-standbys of the TMAists, including how mondern, functional training methods will wreck your body. Hardly. Helio is 90 and still rolls. Is his body wrecked? Training athletically and functionally has just the opposite effect.
Wait a minute, Santa isn’t real?
Ha ha, first one to say it
I can’t believe it! Fairies don’t exist??
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;807088] You rely on many of old-standbys of the TMAists, including how mondern, functional training methods will wreck your body. Hardly. Helio is 90 and still rolls. Is his body wrecked? Training athletically and functionally has just the opposite effect.[/QUOTE]
Well I never!? You wouldn’t be talking about Helio Gracie by any chance??? If this is a reference to BJJ, I must say that for once I agree with you!!
Sorry to state the obvious, but Helio can still roll at his age because of his own Traditional ‘Family’ style of fighting. This I know as I have had the pleasure of hosting a seminar with two prominent players in the Gracie camp and this is what they told me. Face to face. They both said something like this;
“Gracie BJJ is a Family Style of Jiu Jitsu, something that has grown from the Gracie Families involvement through the generations”
I think, well I know, I have already made this comparison to Wing Chun in another thread, as we too are a Family Style which has been developed and modernized through generations, and I believe that you have just assisted me in proving a point… Thank you!
Oh! And on the Bruce Lee front. Do you really think that he was pointing his finger at Wing Chun when he was quoted as saying ‘Forms are a classical mess’? If you do, then I’m afraid that you also know nothing about Bruce Lee either. He was describing the efficiency and ‘functionality’ of Wing Chuns First Form, but I guess you don’t believe that either considering he was Chinese too (well, Chinese-American)
Sod it! I may as well go all out here…
Any footage of Helio at 18-25 laying around on your training hall floor to prove that he can ‘fight’? Or do you take Royces word for it?
Hold on a minute, Lone Tiger. You yourself have admitted that you are no expert in Wing Chun, let alone BJJ. So if I were you, I would not let any individual’s comments bait you into insulting a recognized martial arts pioneer and legend. Helio Gracie has proven himself time and time again (including on film as a young man, which you obviously haven’t seen). And Royce Gracie is affiliated with CRCA through our King William, VA academy run by Johnny Simons, Jr. He and his team have won many titles throughout the USA using his particular blend of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and CRCA Wing Chun.
Regardless about how you feel about what any one person is saying about the style we love and dedicate ourselves to, it is wrong to be drawn into making the same mistakes as they do by echoing their bad martial arts etiquette.
No insult was intended
[QUOTE=donbdc;807127]Hold on a minute, Lone Tiger. You yourself have admitted that you are no expert in Wing Chun, let alone BJJ. So if I were you, I would not let any individual’s comments bait you into insulting a recognized martial arts pioneer and legend.
Regardless about how you feel about what any one person is saying about the style we love and dedicate ourselves to, it is wrong to be drawn into making the same mistakes as they do by echoing their bad martial arts etiquette.[/QUOTE]
Mmmm. I must say donbdc, I’m hoping you will explain where I insulted a recognized ‘martial arts pioneer and legend?’ All I have done here is ask for the same evidence that has been asked of me and any Wing Chun practitioner. AND I was hoping that somebody would mentionthe Helio clips, as I had heard that something exists (so thanks for that), but been told that the clips were standard jiujitsu tournaments with NO striking. Please tell me how this proving you can ‘fight’.
I meant no offence to the Gracie Family whatsoever, and I was only trying to highlight the similarities to our own Family style. I’m only trying to get T to think before he retaliates…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807163]Mmmm. I must say donbdc, I’m hoping you will explain where I insulted a recognized ‘martial arts pioneer and legend?’ All I have done here is ask for the same evidence that has been asked of me and any Wing Chun practitioner, AND I was hoping that somebody would mentionthe Helio clips, as I had heard that something exists (so thanks for that), but been told that the clips were standard jiujitsu tournaments with NO striking. Please tell me how this proving you can ‘fight’.[/QUOTE] sorry but i have to tell you that you are very wrong on this as helio gracie did vale tudo (anything goes - as in ANYTHING !!! also no time limits and no gloves or protection of any kind) style fighting, and his stance on sports jits is that is is not what he feels jiu jitsu is about and he feels his jits is for fighting/self defence purposes and not competition (what actually happened was the equivalent of the wing chun lineage wars between helios side and carlos gracies side which resulted in rorion gracie suing his cousin)
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807163]
I meant no offence to the Gracie Family whatsoever, and I was only trying to highlight the similarities to our own Family style. I’m only trying to get T to think before he retaliates…[/QUOTE]
the main differences in this regard are this, due MAINLY to competition within bjj the system as a whole has develped and continues to develop as practitioners of all ‘lineages - barra - humaita - btt -etc etc’ are continually competeing/exchanging/developing ideas and techniques and as a result are forcing the continual evoloution of bjj as a whole,
whereas wing chun has fragmented so much that there is no longer any real development or communication within the system and which leads to point 2 that is as a result of competition i can say for example roger gracie is the best bjj player in the world at the moment, how can i say this so definitively?? well because he has beaten the rest and is the current world champion, whereas imagine for one second the outcry if i stated definitively that for example that william cheung was the best!!! well i know the wsl guys wouldnt accept that as im sure neither would for example yip chun boys or tst guys, now imagine if there was a full contact, no rules, no time limit, no gloves competition, then we could establish both a “standard (read best 
) way” and also a means of fully testing the range of tools available within wing chun which would lead to more development of the system as a whole AND which would be felt throughout the system regardless of lineage, and also a side effect would be that those who diddnt/wouldnt participate could be safely dismissed as they are not prepared to ‘prove’ what they think/feel with regards to right/wrong…
just my 02
I agree competition is good for combative styles or systems..
However one fighter no matter how good does not make a better system.. You need to be able to reproduce those results over and over again with more people in competition THEN you got something..
[QUOTE=YungChun;807216]I agree competition is good for combative styles or systems..
However one fighter no matter how good does not make a better system.. You need to be able to reproduce those results over and over again with more people in compeition THEN you got something..[/QUOTE]
i agree entirely and will also point out that pretty much all bjj clubs are judged on the results of the competitors within and not just one person and again for example i would point you in the direction of in this case RGA (roger gracie academy) and the fact that for example my instructor in bjj nick brooks was world champion at purple belt in his weight class (hes now a brown belt) or daniel strauss (who would be the equivalent of my ‘sihing’) who is the uk champion at blue belt in his weight (and hes only just turned 17 and 70 kilos :eek: i tell you he is awesome-last night he was pulling off flying gogaplatas :eek:) which tells us that when fighting people of similar size and experience/skill level they can reproduce the skills which roger is teaching them and as a whole i believe (altho i cant find the results at the mo) that RGA won more medals and topped the club listings for medals won (out of the uk clubs)
Before Chin Woo it was madness…
[QUOTE=forever young;807195]sorry but i have to tell you that you are very wrong on this as helio gracie did vale tudo (anything goes - as in ANYTHING !!! also no time limits and no gloves or protection of any kind) style fighting, and his stance on sports jits is that is is not what he feels jiu jitsu is about and he feels his jits is for fighting/self defence purposes and not competition…
…now imagine if there was a full contact, no rules, no time limit, no gloves competition, then we could establish both a “standard (read best ) way” and also a means of fully testing the range of tools available within wing chun which would lead to more development of the system as a whole AND which would be felt throughout the system regardless of lineage, and also a side effect would be that those who diddnt/wouldnt participate could be safely dismissed as they are not prepared to ‘prove’ what they think/feel with regards to right/wrong…
just my 02[/QUOTE]
Thankyou for correcting me on Helios history, I was obviously led to believe otherwise, but isn’t this what a discussion is for? I must also point out that Roger Gracie is, in a word, phenomenal. A superb athlete and character who passes his knowledge very well from what I saw. I still think that even he would not advocate what you’re talking about here. He didn’t come across as the bloodsport type IMO.
I would like to draw your attention to the Chin Woo story here, and how maybe a practitioner from this school would be a great help in this thread! Before Chin Woos establishment I think you will find that this ‘standard way’ was already in operation throughout the towns and villages of China and people simply died. The ‘idea’ of no-holds-barred competition is a tried and tested scenario which ended in people being killed or seriously injured. Now, I don’t want to seem totally against competition because I do see its uses in character building etc, but to just throw people into a life & death situation and expect to ‘develop’ together is a joke. Back then, Chin Woo united many different styles at the time and really could have lead the way in this field, but as time passed by guess what happened?
The Communist Government got involved and the birth of Modern Wushu took hold, and we all know how many rules are now involved in the ‘SanShou/SanDa’ competitions. I still get fed up seeing students lose their heads and become kickboxers in the blink of an eye.
So where’s the happy medium? What is the correct path? Who can actually organize the Worlds Wing Chun population to fight eachother?
IMHO, I’d say there will never be a happy medium, the correct path for all Martial Artist is totally personal and nobody alive today will be able to convince me to actually fight with my own Martial Family.
I do now wish that I had left this thread alone… I should have listened to anerlich lol!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]Thankyou for correcting me on Helios history, I was obviously led to believe otherwise, but isn’t this what a discussion is for? I must also point out that Roger Gracie is, in a word, phenomenal. A superb athlete and character who passes his knowledge very well from what I saw. I still think that even he would not advocate what you’re talking about here. He didn’t come across as the bloodsport type IMO.[/QUOTE]well 1st i agree, this is exactly what discussions are for 
now while i agree that roger is a phenom i will say that the gracies in general DO have a degree of bloodthirst and i believe they used to place adverts in the papers asking for people to come down and get their arms and legs broken (or words to that effect :p)
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]
I would like to draw your attention to the Chin Woo story here, and how maybe a practitioner from this school would be a great help in this thread! Before Chin Woos establishment I think you will find that this ‘standard way’ was already in operation throughout the towns and villages of China and people simply died. The ‘idea’ of no-holds-barred competition is a tried and tested scenario which ended in people being killed or seriously injured. Now, I don’t want to seem totally against competition because I do see its uses in character building etc, but to just throw people into a life & death situation and expect to ‘develop’ together is a joke. Back then, Chin Woo united many different styles at the time and really could have lead the way in this field, but as time passed by guess what happened?
[/QUOTE]well i was going to mention that as far as im aware this used to happen in kung fu regularly as beimo type competitions (i wont go into the “quality” of the fights/fighters) BUT i would just like to highlight this
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]
and people simply died. The ‘idea’ of no-holds-barred competition is a tried and tested scenario which ended in people being killed or seriously injured. Now, I don’t want to seem totally against competition because I do see its uses in character building etc, but to just throw people into a life & death situation and expect to ‘develop’ together is a joke.[/QUOTE]
well i have to seriously disagree here 1st off you are quite simply repeating tired old “too deadly” arguments which quite simply dont wash when scrutinised closely under ‘full pressure’ (altho im not suggesting that there are not 'deadly moves’more the point that those ‘deadly moves’ cannot be relied upon when confronted by anyone with a degree of skill also fallacy no 2 is the idea that people get ‘killed or seriously injured’ in nhb type fights, well again while i wont deny its a possibility 50 years of evidence would disagree with this (check youtube for ‘rio heroes’ or go to rioheroes.com for a small sample of evidence supporting my argument)
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]
The Communist Government got involved and the birth of Modern Wushu took hold, and we all know how many rules are now involved in the ‘SanShou/SanDa’ competitions. I still get fed up seeing students lose their heads and become kickboxers in the blink of an eye.
[/QUOTE]
well at the end of the day if you are kicking or punching it will look like kicking and punching and not how it might look within the confines of the kwoon
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]
So where’s the happy medium? What is the correct path? Who can actually organize the Worlds Wing Chun population to fight eachother?
[/QUOTE]
well here is the problem which is almost insurmountable imo and im afraid i dont have the answer. maybe the vtaa?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807236]
IMHO, I’d say there will never be a happy medium, the correct path for all Martial Artist is totally personal and nobody alive today will be able to convince me to actually fight with my own Martial Family.
I do now wish that I had left this thread alone… I should have listened to anerlich lol![/QUOTE]
well thanks for the discussion i enjoyed it