Phil i give both guys massive props for getting in front of another man with no gear and doing in front of such a crowd that takes huge balls !
i’m just looking at it with no fantasy fu filter on , training methods and results from those methods
i fell the quality of opponent was very low back then so the quality of skill never really needed to be very high to get the basic job done , yet the quality of bs spin and imaginary story is top notch ! 
Well even GM Cheung said the quality of Martial Arts in Hong Kong back in the 50’s was real low. According to him, the masters would never practice and stood behind their lineage and relied on that reputation to avoid conflict (your Sifu was who? Oh No can’t mess with you.)and also were basically lazy. He would know as he fought lots of them as well as WSL..
Stuff like this happens here in today’s world also, but I still believe the quality of MA in general is higher. The general public has seen lots of Martial Arts through the years by way of the media and have certain expectations. In other words they are NOT a uneducated when it comes to MA in general, and with the invention of the internet it is not hard to gain access to information on something they need to learn about.
James
From my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, but WSL basically used mainly two techs when fighting in HK. He did lots of qwan saos and vertical punches.
I read a book (can’t remember who wrote it) of a guy who did WSL wing chun and he was saying they did infact emphasize a lot on the qwan sao, on punching, and long pole.
So, there could be some truth to this. If so, he mainly used two techniques for win fights, what does this mean? He was really good at only 2 techs? I doubt that. Those two were unstoppable? I doubt that as well.
Its probably the quality of his opponets, afterall you are fighting people and not systems.
there are no techniques these are shadows , those that fixate on techniques are chasing shadows ,
WSL had very good footwork timing , speed , and body mechanics for power delivery , they guy new how to hit and didn’t waste time on making techniques work , the guys he fought were probably trying to use techniques , fitting the circle into the square mentality ,
the reason he probably only used very basic and simple motion is do to the fact that the quality of guys never offered enough skill for anything else to be needed
I have found this in my own training the better my timing gets the more direct and simple I get often anti climatic , once you develop and understand development of your personal attributes , things like techniques become shallow , kindergarten thinking , you can interchange what ever ''technique ‘’ you want if you have the ability to set up the position and timing ,
how do you get good at timing and position , ahhh back to goal oriented training methods again , not just stacking up empty techniques
just to add ,
I blame the outdated non result producing system as much as the person ,
for example if these guys were masters of what ever [flying buffalowing emie fantasy fu system ] then they were teaching and had learned what here special secret scrolls dictated and great training methods right ?
they should at the very least be able to relate to another person right ?
yet all the do is throw there forms at each other and hope for the best .
this is very bad training , the system is flawed and so the results will be less then
the very best minds of the past could invent a great fire cracker , yet now we have bombs ,
would you go to a war of bombs with a fire cracker ?
yet people seem to worship the idea of a firecracker ha ha
the old systems produced results based on what they were exposed to , the world is a much smaller place now and those same systems can not hold up , there has been no real proof [beyond fantasy fu stories ] to prove other wise !
no problem in being a student of the past hell people still fly antique planes and race model it’s but I’m not excepting them to out perform a jet 
Timing, foot work, a kung fu master craves not these things
This reminds me of bruce lee, and the way of the intercepting fist. He talks about timing, and effeciency in technique. Closest target, closest weapon. So on and so forth. In his documentary, he was saying that entry, timing and foot work were very important, you have to intercept the opponet. Hence the same of his MA.
However, its all attributes, and you should not rely on them b/c there is always someone faster, smarter, stronger, bigger, etc than you. However, I digress, having attributes gives you that edge.
The problem is ernie, some MAist try to reinvent the wheel, why others just try to streamline and improve the wheel.
what makes a good martial art system , should be the development of these things , maximising your potential , not being less then just for sh*ts and giggles
ther is no reinvention of you body , there is only finding ways to improve your skills based on taking that darn wheel out for a roll once in a while
perhaps there is even no longer a need for the wheel , how will we no if we do not dare to free ourselves from it !
i’m sure the guys on film thought they had great wheels :eek:
This is funny as we were just talking about something similar to these concepts last night with Sifu and some students that stuck around after class. In our system we have a level grading system, level 1 to 10, with 10 being instructor (Sifu) level. Sifu was explaining how the progression works, with level 1 to 3 being physical (technique based), and obtaining balance, timing, footwork patterns, etc.. Level 4 to 6 is mental (Concept based) and the person starts to understand why and how things are done and becomes analytical towards it all, absorbing information and processing it. Level 7 to 10 is the spiritual level (becoming one with it all) and is basically about belief in you and your abilities. At this stage he said that there is no distinction between you and your WC, it is all just you. But to get there you have to go through the first levels to appreciate the later ones.
As Ernie said, at a high level of skill and understanding you can interchange any technique with any concept of the system, so therefore there are no absolutes or only one way of doing things, but a complete set of tools available for the one that can obtain such skills.
Good thread…
James
Every fighter uses “techniques”.
Techniques are not the issue.
It’s the quality of the technique that counts.
Is it practical and to-the-point?
Does it take too long to unfold?
Can it be delivered with speed and power?
Does it allow for followup?
Or is it so far out of the loop…
that you’re in trouble if you miss with it?
Quality fighting is about Will, Skill, and Conditioning.
Regardless of what decade, or even century, we’re talking about.
And part of SKILL is training methods.
Do they include realistic sparring preparation?
Against quality partners/opponents?
Do they include the development of attributes…
such as speed, power, elusiveness, explosiveness, flexibility, strength, etc…
or does one’s preparation only cover strategy and technique?
These are the issues to be covered - if one wants to be a quality fighter.
And there are many from the past who passed these tests very adequately.
Let’s not forget that in our haste to throw the past away and only look into the mirror of today.
Yes…the two gentleman in this video clip weren’t very good. Pretty bad, actually.
But efficient and highly dangerous fighters have always been with us - from every corner of the globe, and in every era.
My goal is not to be a “quality fighter”, as fighting per say the way I define it is all about ego. I avoid fighting at all costs and over the last few years have actually had no problems avoiding it, I’m lucky I guess in that way as I seem to not attract attention or challenges that way. In the past the goal was quality skill in my WC, so I trained hard and am now reaping the rewards, with less effort to maintain the skills. IMO good quality skill in WC will translate to good quality self defense or fighting skills, all expressed through the individual.
I agree with Victor the quality fighters have always been with us throught the ages, and this video is not the be all end all of the fighting skill of the masters of that day.
James
Timing, foot work, a kung fu master craves not these things
However, its all attributes, and you should not rely on them b/c there is always someone faster, smarter, stronger, bigger, etc than you. However, I digress, having attributes gives you that edge.
I disagree, strategy, skill, timing and footwork are things that can be developed to a high degree by just about anyone, whereas attributes such as strength, size, speed are much less mutable.
IMO you want a system which relies on the first set of attributes rather than the second. The idea is to overcome the less mutable attributes by developing the more mutable ones.
Following your original statements to their logical conclusion would result in assertions like:
“You should not rely on skill/sensitivity/timing, because there will always be someone more skilled/sensitive/with better timing than you.”
“You should not rely on awareness, because there will always be someone more aware than you.” (sorry, couldn’t resist)
In which case IMO there would be no point training at all.
"…skill, timing and footwork are things that can be developed to a high degree by just about anyone, whereas attributes such as strength, size, speed are much less mutable.
IMO you want a system which relies on the first set of attributes rather than the second. The idea is to overcome the less mutable attributes by developing the more mutable ones." (Anerlich)
DEFINITELY CORRECT…and let’s add technique into the equation as well.
Skill…in using intelligent and effective technique, strategy, timing, and footwork are things that just about anyone can achieve…whereas strength, size, and speed are variables that are harder to control (although consistent conditioning can result in extra strength)…and then there’s also cardio endurance - which is also an attribute that we can control with hard and consistent work.
It’s all of the above. But the key is to focus our time on those variables that are within our control.
Vic-
DEFINITELY CORRECT…and let’s add technique into the equation as well.
sorry bro we see things much differnt here technique is a dead thing just fixed refernce points and static combonations that do not really relate
skill is the ability to set up and control position once you have position , how you finish is less important ,
people often get very lost trying to technique each other , and argue in circles about this or that technique
this is a very empty/ shallow conversation
many people define themselves by this or that technique how this one is better then that one ---- just silly in respect to what ? who , when , these things change and are alive
but timing , distance feeling , are in constant contact and linked in all actions , the real root behind everything , this is were one should invest there time , and that is a very personal honesty not taught in a technique , but through experience 
Basic foundational technique is important IMO, but in the higher stages of understanding and skill it becomes less important, and the attributes you mention here, timing, distance control, positioning with your opponent and setting him up become more important. At this stage of my game, I don’t focus on improving my Tan Sao or Bil sao, etc., and using it with any combination of footwork, but rather focus on perception abilities, timing and spirit of the thing behind the movements, as well as constant forward pressure against my opponent and such.
James
what is more then the Open up, Close down, Lift up, and Drop down disregard of styles.
what element of these four, cant be used naturally at the proper instant? as for jing, that is just different ways to generate and use power. That simple.
But saying is sure much much much more easy then having the ability to do it naturally.
“skill is the ability to set up and control position once you have position , how you finish is less important”
why not just save time and “finish” instead of making things complicated?
I’m going to quote something you wrote, Ernie…but I’m going to put a certain part of it in caps - so as to draw attention to it:
"sorry bro we see things much differnt here technique is a dead thing just fixed refernce points and static combonations that do not really relate
SKILL IS THE ABILITY TO SET UP AND CONTROL POSITION, once you have position , how you finish is less important ,
people often get very lost trying to technique each other , and argue in circles about this or that technique." (Ernie)
…
Setting up and controlling a position - IS TECHNIQUE !!!
Put that another way: In order to do that, you must have GOOD TECHNIQUE.
Unless you’re fighting a scrub…but if he’s any good - you’re not going to get any CONTROLLING POSITION on him without efficient technique.
Technique is not a dead thing - it’s very much alive…if you’re using appropriate techniques (ie.- one’s that fit the situation)…and you do it spontaneously; that is, you learn to trust your muscle memory and your intuitive mind to make the necessary adjustments and choices to fit each moment in the encounter.
So the end result may “look” spontaneous…but in fact you have rehearsed it many times in the past in some form or another - and now the computer within your body and mind “picks” the right move (technique) at the right time in the blink of an eye.
easy to say , easy to do on a non skilled person , but if you can not open the door for termination you will just crash ,force on force , or do desperation chain punches all of which are very low on the skill meter
Vic - it’s noe really technique for me bro , not in the tis or that shape or pattern , or sequence ,
it’s just the right body mechanic to support the position [platform/framework] what comes at the end of that the extension of that is interchangeable
once you are in a good position be it standing sitting , on the floor what ever , good for you bad for him , if you finish with a punch , kick , bite ,lock ,head butt , hit him with a chair, brick , Etc it’s really just your choice and preference
sure in the begining we train many fixed refernde points to feel the body mechanics behind them and the right control point to fire off , this is like all things the building of alot to in the end use a little ,
for example vic your probably good enough to pick any random technique and spar only that against any of your students doing what ever the like and you can ‘‘finish’’ with just that
but the reason you can is your timing ,and footwork,feeling,speed and power have been cultivated to a higher degree
so if you limit yourself to just , lets say a right cross for example you can drop people all day with just that , or maybe a choke , what ever you can get there because you skills get you to that position