This goes out to Hendrik and the rest of you bookworms =)
In what era, time frame, year what ever
Would you say there is actual proof of wing Chun’s effectiveness as a combative martial art
And effeintcy I mean not just one person but were the training methods we producing a high quality of fighters
Now I ‘m looking for factual proof not stories
And again not just one great individual but more over a the general quality of the students was at a all time high
Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]This goes out to Hendrik and the rest of you bookworms =)
In what era, time frame, year what ever
Would you say there is actual proof of wing Chun’s effectiveness as a combative martial art
And effeintcy I mean not just one person but were the training methods we producing a high quality of fighters
Now I ‘m looking for factual proof not stories
And again not just one great individual but more over a the general quality of the students was at a all time high [/B]
Didnt you ask Gary Lam this question before you join that WCK sytle? 
otherwise, it is too late. You are on board the Pilate ship! Sold! Hehehehe
BTW, I am not a Bookworms because I dont read that much.
I fly to Taiwan, I fly to China. I fly to SEA, I fly to Japan…and fly down to LA…
In a compliance manner I let people shock me, take me down, hit me. Chi Me… all sort of things which they call it Wing Chun or Weng Chun or BJJ… Or Shao Lin… I must be a genee(sp) pig instead of a worm.
Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Didnt you ask this question to Gary Lam before you join that WCK club?
otherwise, it is too late. You are on board the Pilate ship! Sold! Hehehehe
no i got infront of Gary and he shut me down , he doesn’t care much for history either you can use the skill or your just running your mouth is his take on it
but really i’m trying to understand and asking a honest question
when do you think [ with proven facts ] was the highest quality of WCK and why ?
Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]
but really i’m trying to understand and asking a honest question
when do you think [ with proven facts ] was the highest quality of WCK and why ? [/B]
I would let VTM answer this one.
Since I am a kyokushin. and I love K1. and you dont like Mas Oyama. andy hug…hahaha
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]I would let VTM answer this one.
Since I am a kyokushin. and I love K1. [/B]
it’s only your personal view and why they can not answer for you
really , the reason i ask is for research
everyone has a take on lineage or energy or history right
but i look for results
so i wonder in what time frame was WCK having it’s best results over all not just for one individual and what proof is there
also who were they fighting , what were the results based on
this would point at when what were enegine and training methods produced some real results
instead of just searching everything pin point it to it glory days
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]it’s only your personal view and why they can not answer for you
really , the reason i ask is for research
[/B]
I have not tested the Kyokushin low sweep enough to have any reliable data.
not tested enough the Muay Thai close body elbowing too…
so no data.
But I know I cant take an Inch JIng Power Join strike from the old White Crane of Taiwan and the shock of the old Yee Chuan from the Beijing. will cause me Too much damage accompliance or not.
glory day? those old white crane, old Yee chuan, kyokushin guys or Muay thai guys are still alive. what glory day?
It would be nice to have the old White Crane’s Inch Jing Join Power, Old Yee Chuan’s Shock. Kyokushin’s low sweep. Muay Thai’s Elbowing…
What a great combination in my dream world.
Is that WCK? I dont knoowww.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]I have not tested the Kyokushin low sweep enough to have any reliable data.
not tested enough the Muay Thai close body elbowing too…
so no data.
But I know I cant take an Inch JIng Power Join strike from the old White Crane of Taiwan and the shock of the old Yee Chuan from the Beijing. will cause me Too much damage
glory day? those old white crane, old Yee chuan, kyokushin guys or Muay thai guys are still alive. what glory day? [/B]
ok i hear what your saying but were are the results , you said old white crane guys who and what results ,training methods , testing did this group accomplish ?
as for the thai guys perfect example there training methods and results are obvious and still improving every year adding in boxing hands and footwork and training methods and tools
but what of WCK ?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]
as for the thai guys perfect example there training methods and results are obvious and still improving every year adding in boxing hands and footwork and training methods and tools
but what of WCK ? [/B]
oh you forget Kyokushin too
As for WCK, you train more then me since I am a bookworm. hehehe
so, what of WCK?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey I have a history question!
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]oh you forget Kyokushin too
As for WCK, you train more then me since I am a bookworm. hehehe
so, what of WCK? [/B]
hey i saw fighter in the wind interesting story . but the training methods lacked skill just hard core the body and ability to take pain
alot of human punching bags out there
K-1 boxing , thai , BJJ , and so on
have clear and obvious methods for producing results , there is no mystery or special historical figure
they get better every year
i’m not concerned with those arts i have trained in them and seen the methods and results first hand
no magic just hard work
but i keep hearing people argue about this or that time or person or method in wing chun
so i simply asked when do you think WCK was or is at it’s prime and what facts are there to prove it
so we can focus in on those training methods and measure the results
not a hard question
for me it would have to be in the 1940’s up until 1970
seemed like people out of Yip’s camp were out fighting and making a name for themselves
now there training methods and the level of people the fought need to be taken into account
this information can be proven on old film and news paper articles
but i’m not a history dude so i never bothered to look furthur
just thought i would ask the history people that’s all didn’t think it would be such a hard question to answer
Re: Hey I have a history question!
The era of Wing Chun was probably the late 50’s and early 60’s.
The place was Hong Kong.
Why? Because a lot of the students were young punks who would then go out on the street and fight.
Many such as Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung and Bruce Lee would go out looking to fight other styles. In the early 50’s guys like Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu would go out and fight as well, as would their students.
Where is the problem in all of this?
Well, what was the quality level of their opponents?
Probably pretty poor.
What happened when Wing Chun faced off with Muay Thai back then?
Most of the WC guys were used to the out of shape, poorly trained HK guys they fought and not fighters who were well conditioned and used to taking on punishment. So they got their @sses handed to them.
Just look at the footage of the “rooftop” fights that is available. Look at the fight between the taiji guy and the white crane guy. Just embarassing.
The percentages of high caliber fighters vs amatuers was probably out of whack.
That said, given the principles behind Wing Chun and it’s training approach–at the time–it gave the WCK guys the advantage of being able to go in on the centerline and pound away at the flowery style guys. The training approach in chi sao coupled with chain punching seemed to give the WC teenagers the advantage over guys who trained in less effective arts.
The Wing Chun guys would mix it up with the White Crane and Choy Lay Fut folks quite a bit. But how many of any of the styles in Hong Kong had what we would consider today to be elite world class fighters vs the general populace?
Look at the fact that most of the men learning Wing Chun were bus drivers, trolley drivers and restaurant workers. That means they DID have to work for a living and WCK was a hobby. The kids learning WC were just that kids.
Guys who are really good at fighting tend to be aggressive and fight a lot. It is part of their mindset and how they lived their life–picking fights with people, getting beat down and dealing out beatdowns. The more the place where training was hard and brutal, the more likely they could fight. right?
Thank you David ,
so this makes sense why people will reach back into the past and latch on to a story rather then any current or semi recent event
an old story has the air of magic and mystery and the bluff can not be called
were as anything in provable history is not so special hmm
i get the same impression from the video i have seen of old masters they suck
this leads me to believe alot of the shoalin shaw brothers hype has caused mass brain washing
Ernie:
In answer to your original post on this thread…
In the 1950’s there were plenty of eye witnesses to the successful fights of William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Bruce Lee, and a few others…in the 1960’s-early 1970’s…mostly Bruce - but also some fights of the other two I mentioned…as well as Duncan Leung (here in NYC)…have heard some things about people like Victor Kan (from the 50’s and 60’s)…have heard about Gary Lam…
And there has been some talk of people witnesssing a few of Yip Man’s fights way back in the day…(and the same for Yuan Kay San)…
but as to past centuries and what’s going on lately?
It’s all hearsay. (Which is not to say that it hasn’t happened…but not enough people have come forward to bear witness to the point where we can DEFINITELY say this or that about so-and-so).
SO THEREFORE ALL ATTEMPTS TO CONTINUE LIVING IN THE PAST (ESPECIALLY PAST CENTURIES)…
is foolhardy at best - and escapist at worst.
It really seems as though the more some people want to push forward into today’s martial arts world - with a view toward the future of Wing Chun…the more some other people want to go EVEN FURTHER BACK IN TIME (ie. - the 1600’s)…looking for answers, training methods, etc.
That’s why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik’s posts, for example.
It’s a waste of valuable time in the here and now.
Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo.
David,
as I heard from the old timers.
A person who was always humble but having great skill and not in the spotlight much is WCK sifu Jiu Wan. the sifu of the shaw’s brother martial art star Ti Lung.
This person was very very well respected in every part of the society including where fighting for life was carried out to solve conflict.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]It really seems as though the more some people want to push forward into today’s martial arts world - with a view toward the future of Wing Chun…the more some other people want to go EVEN FURTHER BACK IN TIME (ie. - the 1600’s)…looking for answers, training methods, etc.
That’s why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik’s posts, for example.
It’s a waste of valuable time in the here and now.
Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo. [/B]
there is no conflict of examine what is happening in the past and to push forward.
There is no conflict of identify what we “push” to see if we “push” the thing we want to push. or we “push” whatever we want to “push” blindly.
There is no conflict of studying how indian makes smoke for communication and studying modern digital signal processing.
Waste of valuable time is relative.
Doing thing right and Doing the right thing is obviously different.
But everything is embrace and acceptable.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]
That’s why I have such a problem with about 99% of Hendrik’s posts, for example.
It’s a waste of valuable time in the here and now.
Even reading them (and responding to them) is a waste, imo. [/B]
Nobody is forcing you Victor!
Nobody is forcing me…
but when the man starts thread-after-thread…and sometimes 4 or 5 threads going simultaneously…and VERY LONG post-after-post…
and 99% of it amounts to a giant hill-of-beans…with absolutely no practical value whatsoever…
attempting to clog up the space with the same-old…same-old…
and I do mean “OLD”…
Well…whatever criticism he gets for it - he deserves to get!
It’s a giant filibuster - trying to hold back the inevitable march into the future.
And it’s annoying.
So there!!!
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Nobody is forcing me…
but when the man starts thread-after-thread…and sometimes 4 or 5 threads going simultaneously…and VERY LONG post-after-post…
and 99% of it amounts to a giant hill-of-beans…with absolutely no practical value whatsoever…
attempting to clog up the space with the same-old…same-old…
and I do mean “OLD”…
Well…whatever criticism he gets for it - he deserves to get!
It’s a giant filibuster - trying to hold back the inevitable march into the future.
And it’s annoying.
So there!!! [/B]
if you can ignore the bill board in the subway or the big giant wide screen TV advertisment in NYC.
Then you can ignore me.
I sure deserve all the critics.
But, Ernie starts this discussion asking me question bro!
Ernie bro, see you better stop this HEHEHEHEHE!
To whoever it might concern.
It’s simple!..You don’t like a thread?..Keep out of it.It is futile to argue just for the sake of arguing or worse!..Simply because you don’t like the guy.There is a lot of this going on lately.
Also,opinions on the value of subjects is always based on personal matters. Showing a little respect is not so hard to do.
i ask not to cause problems but to be clear about why people hunt ghost .
from what i have heard so far WCK showed it’s value only in the last 60 years
which means it evolved and was pressure tested by a larger amount of people then just one or two historical figures
it had to prove itself
so if one wants to focus on effecient results that would be a great research starting point
older versions didn’t make a splash and still don’t seem to
so why bother
hey jong what’s your take on WCK’s glory days