[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023403]Again, I can name at least ten people on here who are new sifus or on the cusp of becoming sifus who have been positively impacted by info you shared(when you weren’t trolling). Who have better, more notaqble kung fu because of it.
Whereas you are saying that all your efforts to fight the bad kung fu have been fruitless.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1023415][/QUOTE]
Is that one of your guys, MK? Or Ross’s? Either case, cool stuff. Proves my point, really. He didn’t get that belt arguing with Temple Kung Fu guys.
If he did, where’s mine?
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023413]I apologize. I meant to say when you were facetiously manufacturing flame wars. In between the shaolin taco pics and –shudder–posting the naked Gene Ching pics.[/QUOTE]
You love Gene, you know you do…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1023420]You love Gene, you know you do…[/QUOTE]
Why is the left mouse click so easy to achieve!
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023418]Is that one of your guys, MK? Or Ross’s? Either case, cool stuff. Proves my point, really. He didn’t get that belt arguing with Temple Kung Fu guys.
If he did, where’s mine?[/QUOTE]
My student, currently 10-3 pro record. His last fight in Tulsa was shown on HDNet. 
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1023424]My student, currently 10-3 pro record. His last fight in Tulsa was shown on HDNet. :)[/QUOTE]
Mucho congratulations. That’s awesome.
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023363]I almost entirely agree, aside from worrying at all about the fakes. To take away time for training for that is a waste, imo, and to focus skills gained from that work on fakes with no skill at all is a further waste that does nothing to reform our kung fu and does little to stop the fakes.[/QUOTE]
i disagree. i think because of their illegitimate nature, they promote alot more than legitimate ppls. we need to fite them actively
sanda doesnt discourage traditional frauds. competition and tradition need to become one again not separate
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;1023371]Why bother? It’s the old masters fault for having open door and closed door students. Naturally the open door students are going to spread it widely. Not much we can do about that…so why bother?[/QUOTE]
justice
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1023398]but almost ALL the forms fairies DO think they are learning deadly techniques. sorry it’s true![/QUOTE]
I think to be a forms fairy, you HAVE to believe this, so fair enough.
I think more generously, you could say that some people think that learning the forms is learning the style, in its completeness, and of course, then many come away disappointed.
Forms have become a currency because you can put a monetary value on them, thus more is better, in some circles. Forms mean rank in some styles as well. Not to mention all the ‘marketing’ that goes on concerning forms. They are also the differentiating point between eastern and western MA (for the most part) and thus have a mysterious nature to them for some people.
Forms are just intermediate training, or in some instances, amusement for old men in pursuit of a healthy lifestyle. But, I don’t think any good, old school, traditional martial artist confuses a roadmap with a destination.
I think that is what it all boils down to, forms are intermediate training, when people think they are the end-all, they come up wanting.
Big ups to MK
Oh yea, congrats to MK for fostering such a strong student.
Can you give us some insight on how long have you worked with him? How did you help him? Was there anything you tried that was a failure?
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1023508]
Forms have become a currency because you can put a monetary value on them[/QUOTE]
this is the problem
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1023509]Oh yea, congrats to MK for fostering such a strong student.
Can you give us some insight on how long have you worked with him? How did you help him? Was there anything you tried that was a failure?[/QUOTE]
He’s been training for a little over 2 1/2 years. He was a good wrestler when he started with me, but had absolutely no stand up and no jiu-jitsu. Because he was already capable on the ground, we first worked his ground skills with the intention that he could just take people down and work the points/submissions from there, which worked for a little while. But after he’d won a few, his opponents started getting tougher and he had a couple of fights where he actually got dominated on the ground. So, we started re-emphasizing his stand up skills. After a couple of bumps, he’s managed to become pretty well-rounded.
And after 13 pro fights, his intent is piercing. Everyone who fights this kid knows they were in a fight.
Traditional Kung Fu is alive and well.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1023237]We ran an old school (ie fighting based) kung fu school called “Lama Kung Fu” in NYC for almost 9 years, and that was “way back” in the 80’s/early 90’s (I think the situation has gotten worse recently). With “kung fu” on the door we got wackos, nut jobs, weirdos, but mostly people who wanted to learn forms, didn’t want to work hard and didn’t want to fight.
Curriculum wise, very little of what I do has changed… the fact I dropped the "kung fu"name unfortunately got me the students who could actually do the material[/QUOTE]
I know where you are coming from and I feel for you and others that tried and were unwilling to compromise and so had to go another route.
I’ve been there and seen it too.
BUT, it was a choice you made to “turn your back” on TCMA and go a different direction and that was your right.
In my area every single public kung fu school is a typical, commercial school eith very minor light sparring.
Anyone wanna do full contact must join a MT, MMA or boxing gym.
Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don’t wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.
The only “realistic” ones are the Taiji guys that just d it for fun and health.
That said, in almost every kung fu school you will find a few guys that like to rumble.
But any sifu counting on that would quickly go out of business I think.
Oh many still do the bag work and mitt work, in their own little world, but they rarely fight.
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023177]I can name ten people on here who were inspired by you and others to modernize their approach. All have wider experience due to it, and are becoming better fighters. And are just started at it, but are at the cusp of being sifus(or already are), and are better for it.
Comments like these above are cutting their legs out from under them as well. If you’re not reading the forum that much, odds are you’re not in a position to comment on it much, either.[/QUOTE]
I agree that David’s views about modernizing TCMA are great and worthwhile, that wasn’t the point of my critique, if it can even be viewed as that.
Yes there is a lot of crap in the MA world, even now after the UFC and Vale Tudo and MMA matches that have shown the 'deadly" to be far from that, but WHY is that?
The proof is out there so why are people NOT getting it?
One of the reasons is that those with a traditional Hand, for lack of a better word, aren’t showing AND making clear that the tradition is fighting and NOT Forms, that the tradition is practical basic not fantasy fu, that the tradition is learn fast, be good quickly and perfect over a lifetime, it is NOT “10 years to learn to use it”.
And, while I love Dave for all he is and has done for TCMA and all he tries to do as he sometimes looks like the lone man “wailing against the wind”, the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn’t TCMA.
I know I am sounding critical of Dave but I hope he and others understand what I am trying to say.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1023559]I agree that David’s views about modernizing TCMA are great and worthwhile, that wasn’t the point of my critique, if it can even be viewed as that.
Yes there is a lot of crap in the MA world, even now after the UFC and Vale Tudo and MMA matches that have shown the 'deadly" to be far from that, but WHY is that?
The proof is out there so why are people NOT getting it?
One of the reasons is that those with a traditional Hand, for lack of a better word, aren’t showing AND making clear that the tradition is fighting and NOT Forms, that the tradition is practical basic not fantasy fu, that the tradition is learn fast, be good quickly and perfect over a lifetime, it is NOT “10 years to learn to use it”.
And, while I love Dave for all he is and has done for TCMA and all he tries to do as he sometimes looks like the lone man “wailing against the wind”, the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn’t TCMA.
I know I am sounding critical of Dave but I hope he and others understand what I am trying to say.[/QUOTE]
People like dave that have shown that traditional hand have found its not wanted by those that come to the kung fu schools. My first master came from such a background…from talking to his original students and to him he only taught a handful of sets in the beginning: one of which taught the ging powers, another which taught the correct formation and usage of the PE fist and a few others, all apart from the 8 ging/powers set were very short forms and most of the class was conditioning and sparring (heavy contact at that.. He was known for producing full contact and semi contact fighters who competed all over the world and his squad never lost a major competition anywhere.
Fast forward a few decades and now there are lots more forms to learn, and the original forms are longer and more complicated…and there is less sparring…why ?because this is what people wanted and as he handed over more and more to his senior students this is what they gave their students (his fighters by and large left to go other routes most into kickboxing lol)
People dont really want the fighting aspect from kung fu, and fighters now that were attracted to kung fu and karate in the 60’s and 70’s now avoid it and go the the MMA gyms…sad but true
One of the problems is the fact that pretty much any full contact martial art seems to fall into the class of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, MMA, or boxing. That is the truth of it. If I teach a traditional Kung Fu class that encompasses hard basics, stance training, two man sets, ect. but also do bag and mitt work and spar hard with head gear, boxing gloves and shin guards, it will be called kickboxing.
I don’t believe this to be true, but the fact of the matter is even the so called traditional folks say “Oh, you don’t teach Kung Fu anymore, it’s just kickboxing”. Which I’m sorry to say, is complete Bull Sh**t.
I have trained with enough kickboxers to know the difference when someone has trained in Kung Fu and someone has trained exclusively kickboxing. I have trained with enough Thai folks to know that are certain techniques, mainly side thrust and side teep, that they do not train and are not efficient at as a Kung Fu or Sanda player. The point is you don’t have to wear silk pajamas and prance around like a ballerina on crack to be a Kung Fu fighter.
Personally I don’t give a sh**t about people not believing in Kung Fu or telling me I am a “glorified kickboxer”. Generic labels are all these are, nothing more, nothing less. What I do I will call Kung Fu and if idiots what to argue over the semantics of what it is they can. But I believe we as practioners of TCMA need to stop ******ing in each other’s cheerios and do what the art was meant to do.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1023557]Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don’t wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.[/QUOTE]
Is this your opinion or have you actually interviewed people at Kung Fu gyms?
The reason I ask is that everyone likes to rant against certain stereotypes whether the really exist, exist in a small minority or don’t exist at all. What you claim above is a myth.
I believe the average KF hobbyist doesn’t expect anything more than being able to handle himself against a mugger or street punk looking for trouble.
I remember someone posted a long time ago about seeing some hippy type Tai Chi players practicing in a park. He said he silently shook his head at those poors souls who are believing themselves to be deadly fighters. Did he approach them and ask if they beleived they were training to be fighters? Of course not. It was all in his head. They were probably just training for health, nothing more.
So for everyone to rant against all these KF schools turning out students who think they can tear up fight focused students of MMA or Kickboxing schools just plays into a fantasy land when we’re all supposed to be getting away from fantasy lands and back to reality.
Unless I’m wrong and you have some documented proof of your above statement.
[QUOTE=Frost;1023578]People like dave that have shown that traditional hand have found its not wanted by those that come to the kung fu schools. My first master came from such a background…from talking to his original students and to him he only taught a handful of sets in the beginning: one of which taught the ging powers, another which taught the correct formation and usage of the PE fist and a few others, all apart from the 8 ging/powers set were very short forms and most of the class was conditioning and sparring (heavy contact at that.. He was known for producing full contact and semi contact fighters who competed all over the world and his squad never lost a major competition anywhere.
Fast forward a few decades and now there are lots more forms to learn, and the original forms are longer and more complicated…and there is less sparring…why ?because this is what people wanted and as he handed over more and more to his senior students this is what they gave their students (his fighters by and large left to go other routes most into kickboxing lol)
People dont really want the fighting aspect from kung fu, and fighters now that were attracted to kung fu and karate in the 60’s and 70’s now avoid it and go the the MMA gyms…sad but true[/QUOTE]
Now THIS hits the nail squarely on the head.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1023557]I know where you are coming from and I feel for you and others that tried and were unwilling to compromise and so had to go another route.
I’ve been there and seen it too.
BUT, it was a choice you made to “turn your back” on TCMA and go a different direction and that was your right.
In my area every single public kung fu school is a typical, commercial school eith very minor light sparring.
Anyone wanna do full contact must join a MT, MMA or boxing gym.
Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don’t wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.
The only “realistic” ones are the Taiji guys that just d it for fun and health.
That said, in almost every kung fu school you will find a few guys that like to rumble.
But any sifu counting on that would quickly go out of business I think.
Oh many still do the bag work and mitt work, in their own little world, but they rarely fight.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with and somewhat resemble the remark in as much as I am not active in a school or running a school or anything like that. Nor do I train for competitive fighting venues and these days hard banging is rare.
But, I don’t think what I do is bad for me or the others and I certainly don’t hold any delusions of grandeur about what I can or cannot do against a trained professional fighter. Not without once again finding a reason to do so and then training specifically towards that. 
But I enjoy practice still. Keeps the boners happening. 