I study because I like CLF.
In real fights, I still prefer the choke-slam. It works.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1023559]
the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn’t TCMA.
[/QUOTE]
I have a lot of friends who are legit Muay Thai guys. Many have lived and trained in Thailand. They will be the first person to tell you that we dont’ do Muay Thai. Not in the way we punch, our footwork, what kicks we use, HOW we use them, etc…
I honestly think it is why we do so well in Muay Thai, we have comparable but not exactly teh same skills…
I may not be doing forms, or “line basics” but is that really what CMA is about?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1023769]I have a lot of friends who are legit Muay Thai guys. Many have lived and trained in Thailand. They will be the first person to tell you that we dont’ do Muay Thai. Not in the way we punch, our footwork, what kicks we use, HOW we use them, etc…
I honestly think it is why we do so well in Muay Thai, we have comparable but not exactly teh same skills…
I may not be doing forms, or “line basics” but is that really what CMA is about?[/QUOTE]
So, you admit you don’t even do glorified kickboxing?:eek:
So, you admit you don’t even do glorified kickboxing?
gasp…SAY IT AIN’T SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO…NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
:):D:p
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1023771]So, you admit you don’t even do glorified kickboxing?:eek:[/QUOTE]
Dave’s system, if in fact we can call it that, is so over-cross-trained, his kickbxing doesn’t even qualify as glorified anymore;
seriously though, as I was around in the “old days” (late '80s-eary '90s), and knowing what we trained with Dave and how we rained it, and now seeing what he is doing in the name of Sanda, it’s a short stone’s throw in terms of how far he’s actualy moved from so-called TCMA - all the principles, characteristics, etc. are actualy right there, it’s just the context within which they are trained is a bit more live and pressure-oritented than it wa back then (although back then we used to regularly spar hard-contact, including kicks, strikes, locks and throws w/out pretty much any restriction, although we had a gentleman’s agreement amongst us about not kicking hard to groin, knees or trying to poke each other in the eye or throat too hard or fast - it was a weird amalgam, it seemed to work…); we admittedly had no real ground game to speak of though, so we didn’t spend much time there - obviously that is different now; but I chuckle when i see Dave drill stuff w/students, it “looks” like kickboxing, but I know exactly where he got a given drill in terms of TCMA origin (literaly, some of the stuff is right out of the forms, almost verbatim, you’d be surprised how well it “translates” to a contemporary context w/just a little tweaking, lol)
the difference is that by not calling it Kung FU, he doesn’t get nearly the number of crazies coming to his door w/claims of d3dly kung-fueyness secretly stashed in their spehno-basilar junctions…
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1023806]
as I was around in the “old days” (late '80s-eary '90s), and knowing what we trained with Dave and how we rained it, and now seeing what he is doing in the name of Sanda, it’s a short stone’s throw in terms of how far he’s actualy moved from so-called TCMA - all the principles, characteristics, etc. are actualy right there, it’s just the context within which they are trained is a bit more live and pressure-oritented than it wa back then (although back then we used to regularly spar hard-contact, including kicks, strikes, locks and throws w/out pretty much any restriction, although we had a gentleman’s agreement amongst us about not kicking hard to groin, knees or trying to poke each other in the eye or throat too hard or fast - it was a weird amalgam, it seemed to work…); we admittedly had no real ground game to speak of though, so we didn’t spend much time there - obviously that is different now; but I chuckle when i see Dave drill stuff w/students, it “looks” like kickboxing, but I know exactly where he got a given drill in terms of TCMA origin (literaly, some of the stuff is right out of the forms, almost verbatim, you’d be surprised how well it “translates” to a contemporary context w/just a little tweaking, lol)
the difference is that by not calling it Kung FU, he doesn’t get nearly the number of crazies coming to his door w/claims of d3dly kung-fueyness secretly stashed in their spehno-basilar junctions…[/QUOTE]
This…
Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.
After all, Kung Fu means “Skill attain through hard work”. I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.
[QUOTE=ManilaCrane;1023840]Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.
After all, Kung Fu means “Skill attain through hard work”. I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.[/QUOTE]
The problem is TCMA has too many forms. A friend of mine had learned over 200 forms and he still want to learn more. I have learn over 50 forms in my life and I do know how much burden that can be. If you want to train it, you find out that you don’t have time. If you don’t train it, you feel that you may forget it. The best solution is just to record all your forms on tape and then forget about it for the rest of your life. MMA may have drills but they have no forms. When a TCMA guys is working on his form, a MMA guy already test his skill on the mat. A solid TCMA skill will take a long time to develop. Today time means money and we don’t have time. An arm bar, leg bar, choke, pulling guard, jump guard don’t need 10 years of development time. That’s why MMA is getting popular. One day when MMA guys detect that the TCMA has many to offer, they will go back and study TCMA. The Kelly bell (it’s called stone lock in ancient time) and bicycle tube (people used weight pulley in ancient time) are good examples.
IMO, TCMA is like the Chinese restaurant. It will always have customers no matter how the world will change.
[QUOTE=ManilaCrane;1023840]Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.
After all, Kung Fu means “Skill attain through hard work”. I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.[/QUOTE]
lol yes you are talking crap about MMA and dat stuff, at least have the balls to admit it
Sure its much easier to take a punch to the head or get thrown on your back than it is to sit in a horse stance of practise your forms…the reason most people who want to learn to fight go to a MMA gym is because they turn out fighters and not form pansys who think what they do is better and harder than that easy MMA stuff…but who dont have the b*lls to actually step up and prove it 
And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single…
Whats the difference between a Pak Sao and a Parry? There isn’t any! I train KF, but if I did a pak sao against a boxer, people would say I was resorting to boxing. If I use a floating root, then its not kung fu. Fighting is Fighting! I think people get to caught up on the shaw brother flicks.
Bless,
Buby
[QUOTE=Frost;1023858]lol yes you are talking crap about MMA and dat stuff, at least have the balls to admit it
Sure its much easier to take a punch to the head or get thrown on your back than it is to sit in a horse stance of practise your forms…the reason most people who want to learn to fight go to a MMA gym is because they turn out fighters and not form pansys who think what they do is better and harder than that easy MMA stuff…but who dont have the b*lls to actually step up and prove it
And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single…[/QUOTE]
If you can do a form entirely from a horse stance, there’s something inherently wrong with the form.
And drills are no different from forms. At all. Period. You can take chunks out of forms and make them drills, and I can think of at least one CLF school that does so. It is repetition of a set of movements in order to build them into muscle memory, so you don’t end up trying to remember it during a time when you don’t have time to remember.
This is coming from a guy who HAS to do MMA for work, and does TCMA for a pasttime. MMA has some uses, but it’s not this holy revelation of fighting that has only recently been discovered. All it did (for me) was reemphasize the importance of being able to fight on the ground, and that big, muscular guys hit hard (duh).
[QUOTE=Frost;1023858]
And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn’t or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you…talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.
Bless,
Buby
[QUOTE=Jorge;1023878]I don’t think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn’t or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you…talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.
Bless,
Buby[/QUOTE]
Here in lies the problem with “concept based” martial arts like tcma. The movements get “applied” in the air while doing the form and then techniques are drilled with compliant partners. In many cases the techniques “fit a particular situation” and are drilled in that situation. This leads to people knowing techniques and not technique flow. How can a teacher pull techniques out of his butt from a form and say it is practical and that everything is in the form. By doing that specific movement you are not practicing the technique and instead end up practicing what could be a technique which will not help in combat.
There is so many concepts that people just practice forms and not actual moves against resisting opponents. The techniques from forms are so situational and unrealistic that they cannot be applied freely when sparring.
Quite frankly, even in mma schools you have scads of people who don’t want to actually fight, bang or spar with good intention.
this is the thingf with pretty much any school. There is going to be a greater percentage of people who are there to get fit, get the t-shirt, get some status in their otherwise stausless lives etc etc. lol
Things are same all over.
How many pros in the world?
How many practitioners?
there’s your numbers.
More people train in martial arts for health reasons than those who want to come home with a hyperextended ebow…
[QUOTE=Drake;1023877]If you can do a form entirely from a horse stance, there’s something inherently wrong with the form.
And drills are no different from forms. At all. Period. You can take chunks out of forms and make them drills, and I can think of at least one CLF school that does so. It is repetition of a set of movements in order to build them into muscle memory, so you don’t end up trying to remember it during a time when you don’t have time to remember.
This is coming from a guy who HAS to do MMA for work, and does TCMA for a pasttime. MMA has some uses, but it’s not this holy revelation of fighting that has only recently been discovered. All it did (for me) was reemphasize the importance of being able to fight on the ground, and that big, muscular guys hit hard (duh).[/QUOTE]
well bully for you…and i missed the part where i was replying to you in my post …?
to make it clearer for everyone
- there is nothing easy or easier to practise about MMA, its a **** site harder to do than any kung fu class i have ever been in, and to become good at it takes a lot of hard work, it is not the easy path.
- not everyone can throw a kick or punch well, and those in an MMA can usually throw them alot better than those in a kung fu gym
who said MMA is the holy grail of fighting…most MMA guys i know are grounded enough to know what they do is a sport…most of the kung fu guys i know think differently about their arts…
[QUOTE=Jorge;1023878]I don’t think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn’t or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you…talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.
Bless,
Buby[/QUOTE]
why do people always assume MMA means grappling, i might be at fault here because i listed two grappling moves, but i could also have listed learning to knee in the plum…or learning to land hooks and upper cuts of a underhook without getting hit in return
Taking someone down isnt that hard, especially if they have no grappling training, but since i have over a decade in stand up training as well i am more than happy to bang and knock people out on my feet and if they want to gt close and bridge with me thats fine i actually prefer the clinch to the ground
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1023883]Quite frankly, even in mma schools you have scads of people who don’t want to actually fight, bang or spar with good intention.
this is the thingf with pretty much any school. There is going to be a greater percentage of people who are there to get fit, get the t-shirt, get some status in their otherwise stausless lives etc etc. lol
Things are same all over.
How many pros in the world?
How many practitioners?
there’s your numbers.[/QUOTE]
actually not everyone wants to fight you are right, but in MMA and grappling gyms they all spar to some extent and level of contact, and they know the moves they are doing work because those that do fight out of the gym do the same moves
[QUOTE=Drake;1023884]More people train in martial arts for health reasons than those who want to come home with a hyperextended ebow…[/QUOTE]
and thats fine if thats why they attend, but the problem becomes when people become convinced they will be able to defend themselves with what they are learning…or worse start to teach classes themselves without ever having tested their skills
and i can think of lots of better things for health than alot of the martial arts out there
and as for the hyperextended elbow thing…its a myth made up to scare young children
i saw more injuries during my kung fu training from guys doing silly things (one guy dislocated his knee trying a reverse spinning kick whilst his foot stayed planted to the carpet in the gym…another knocked himself out with a pair of nunchucks…) in 8 years or so training MMA and grappling the worst i have seen is someone getting choked out, no brocken bones or hyperextended elbows sorry …of course the gym i train in might not be that hard core
Are you training TCMA or MMA when you train the hook punch, turn around side/hook kick, spin back fist combo at home without partner?
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif
By looking at the following short clip, it’s easy to tell that the TCMA training is not much different from the MMA training.