Those that trained in TCMA and then went to MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Sorry knifefighter, you do not apply since you are just an mma gorilla…unless you studied a traditional form based martial art sometime… :slight_smile:

Frost, Sanjuro Ronin, I particularly like your posts because you guys did tcma and then went to MMA. You have experience in both and espouse both views combining the best of both worlds to create your own fighting style.

While training in mma has your tcma training come out at all? I was sparring with a guys once and did a fook sau to deflect one of his punches before following up. Later on he was like, “What the hell was that thing you did to my punch?”

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I don’t do MMA and have never gone to MMA, if by MMA you mean the sport.
I have fought in MMA (vale tudo) but only a few fights and I trained MMA for them, yes.
I have always cross trained, it just made sense to train in systems that were specilaised in what I was missing in my MA arsenal or to train in a system that I would have to fight eventually ( know the enemy).
I have always viewed doing that as BEING A TRADITIONALIST.
The tradition of every MA I have done has been “being effective in a fight” so it just made sense to do just that, make the art effective for ME.
After over 30 years I have synthizied all I know into what I do now.
What I do that works best FOR ME and HOW it works best FOR ME.
I don’t call what I do MMA because MMA is the name of the sport and I don’t do it.
I simply call it “boxing” or if you wanna get techical, “Sha Jia Quan” or “Sacramento Family boxing”.
Does my TMA back ground ever come out when I spar or fight?
Yes, all the time, but only the stuff that I can do well, LOL !

3

I started out in JKD/WC. Like most people in the TMA’s I was pretty brainwashed. The only thing that kept me from getting completely brainwashed and continuing to question things was that I always competed along the way. Competition will always help to keep you focused on reality.

4

Didn’t you do time under Inosanto too for awhile?

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To me “MMA” is a training philosophy and methodology… I have HUNDREDS of students that train MMA and do NOT compete. I might also suggest, gasp, that the real “old school” way was much closer to “MMA” than the so called traditionalists would like to come to grips with

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1047459]To me “MMA” is a training philosophy and methodology… I have HUNDREDS of students that train MMA and do NOT compete. I might also suggest, gasp, that the real “old school” way was much closer to “MMA” than the so called traditionalists would like to come to grips with[/QUOTE]

Do you recall any of the old time fighters that did NOT “mix” their MA ?

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it’s a ridiculous premise.

Mixed martial arts. it’s taking more than one martial art and training it with another.

The tcma I learned has bag work, pad work, has weight lifting, has sparring, has running, has weapons work, has chi kung, has yoga…

I used to straight up box. I went to asian traditional martial arts after that.
I used to straight up wrestle, while I was boxing! I still went to tcma after that.

If you aren’t keeping an open mind to everything that’s out there, then you are missing out no matter which side of the fence you are on.

In my opinion, tcma is already mma for the most part. Unless you chose a style that doesn’t address a particular range or subset that you deem important to your well roundedness as a fighter…if you even are a fighter or even capable of fighting.

8

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1047462]Do you recall any of the old time fighters that did NOT “mix” their MA ?[/QUOTE]

Chan Tai San used northern kicking, Mok ga low kicking, choy lay fut long punching, hung kuen short punching, Lama Pai angles, Shuai Jiao throws, and bak mei clinching

He also did Japanese Judo and western boxing

And played with some Kali when he was in the PI

If he had had access to it, I don’t doubt he would have done jiu jitsu, etc

But what did HE know?

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1047467]Chan Tai San used northern kicking, Mok ga low kicking, choy lay fut long punching, hung kuen short punching, Lama Pai angles, Shuai Jiao throws, and bak mei clinching

He also did Japanese Judo and western boxing

And played with some Kali when he was in the PI

If he had had access to it, I don’t doubt he would have done jiu jitsu, etc

But what did HE know?[/QUOTE]

Well so what, did he have a UFC record? Is he on sherdog? could he dominate the iceman in the octagon, because if not, then it’s all useless fairy dancing according to the armchair fans we have crowding in here with the dumb ass questions and apparent cognitive disorders.

I think most of us, with a few exceptions get the fact that learning forms is not a full plate of martial arts. It’s the armchair guys who have difficulty understanding that there is more than one way to skin a cat and it is the larping formsters who cannot grasp that forms are simply not enough to develop a martial artist.

It’s a false argument coming from ego and ignorance on those two ends of the spectrum. I’m perfectly happy with my practice otherwise.

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For all the Buddhism that TMA people ares supposed to be into, there is an absurd inability to simply “let go” of many things, forms being #1 on the list

It is not only a “technology” that few people understand how it was SUPPOSED TO BE USED, it is a technoogy that is now used incorrectly AND most importantly it is an OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY

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its not outdated its like this for a reason. easy quick money

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I love how most of the TCMA styles have a lineage history which usually says “so and so combined this style and that style to come up with his own method.”

The passive learners he taught would go on to copy him pretty exactly. Being passive learners, they probably would not test their skills and end up teaching what they were taught… no deviation!

The active learners would go on to fight and mix their teacher’s method with their own and other methods, just like what we call non-classical Gung Fu, or JKD, or MMA today (with MMA leading the pack due to competitive opportunities.)

13

MP

While training in mma has your tcma training come out at all?

Of course it would this is a silly question. If you start in TCMA and you practice it to proficientcy, then when attacked you utilize your training to defend yourself then it comes out.
when learning TCMA you learn to read Yi , react to telegprahing, use leverage, joint manipulation, distruption to your opponents center, trip, sweep, throw, chock, punch, kick , knee, and elbows… please show me a fighting art that doesnt have these components

Problem is SOME people think of TCMA as silk wearing PJ and nothing else, when no matter what its ALL fighting in one way or another, just becuse PART of learnign is forms its not all their is, to think differently is pure ignorance, refer to the above list, mantis uses all these aspects. as does what you call MMA so whats the difference?

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1047474]For all the Buddhism that TMA people ares supposed to be into, there is an absurd inability to simply “let go” of many things, forms being #1 on the list

It is not only a “technology” that few people understand how it was SUPPOSED TO BE USED, it is a technoogy that is now used incorrectly AND most importantly it is an OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY[/QUOTE]

How would you recommend to use forms as a training tool?

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as a warmup

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I personally don’t recommend forms at all.
Unless they are forms that build build strength or flexiblity or what not.
By forms I mean prearranged set pattern of moves.
Shadow boxing or free style "air sparring’ is NOT forms.

17

I still like hei gung sets and use them.

all other sets have been broken down and sorted.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1047502]MP

Of course it would this is a silly question. If you start in TCMA and you practice it to proficientcy, then when attacked you utilize your training to defend yourself then it comes out.
when learning TCMA you learn to read Yi , react to telegprahing, use leverage, joint manipulation, distruption to your opponents center, trip, sweep, throw, chock, punch, kick , knee, and elbows… please show me a fighting art that doesnt have these components[/quote]

Its not just about having them. Its about employing them. And if they are even carried on correctly. Which is by and large NOT the case. The question is why would a prospective student go to a TCMA school and more than likely learn to do the above wrong, when they can go to a gym that actually fights and learn to do them right?

Problem is SOME people think of TCMA as silk wearing PJ and nothing else, when no matter what its ALL fighting in one way or another, just becuse PART of learnign is forms its not all their is, to think differently is pure ignorance, refer to the above list, mantis uses all these aspects. as does what you call MMA so whats the difference?

No the problem is that by and large 99.9999999 and more 9’s with the little arrow over it % of the TCMA’ers are in fact silk pajama wearing ballet dancers (now don’t get ****ty I didn’t say YOU personally, but as a whole kung fu is in the ****ter). And forms is the entirety of their training. And a few people here yelling that THEY do more than that doesn’t change the fact that to the general populace, kung fu is at its core wearing shiny shirts with bad dragon pictures, dancing around with flimsy weapons for a couple hours then hitting the Chinese buffet. Kung fu deserves the reputation its gotten. And while you may say its ignorance to say there’s no fighting in there. Its also ignorant to try and recreate something that was lost and outdated by modern fighting conditions when the chances of you finding the real deal is about as likely as getting struck by lightning. At what point is enough, enough and you say **** it and scrap the idea for something more likely to bring positive results? You say don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. I say the baby done drowned…

19

Training methods is where it is. If you train hard against resistant opponents and actually train to hit objects instead of the air, your stuff will probably work. The problem is labels and how they are used. It’s kind of like the ****ty girl in high school or college that everyone hooked up with and talked about until everyone finds out she has herpes than everyone denies they did it. The point is if you fuck something long enough and hard enough eventually something nasty happens to all those involved.

20

soCo,

Its not just about having them. Its about employing them. And if they are even carried on correctly. Which is by and large NOT the case. The question is why would a prospective student go to a TCMA school and more than likely learn to do the above wrong, when they can go to a gym that actually fights and learn to do them right?

notice in my post I said proficently, yes there are schools that the teacher is not a fighter and focusses more on the esoteric side of kung fu. But not ALL schools are like this. problem is most people are basing htier opinions on 1, 2 or possibly 3 schools they have been enrolled in or visted and then make sweepin assumtions tht itsz ALL kung fu schools, but we all know this is not the case.

I learned in NY then in SF and I an assure you the schools I leanred in and have visted are fighting academy’s plain and simple, not dance schools .
I was fortunate enough to learn from the chinese and my sifu was 5 time full contact champion of Taiwan in the 1970’s and loves violence LOL.

And forms is the entirety of their training.

please list these schools for us______________ ,

kung fu is at its core wearing shiny shirts with bad dragon pictures, dancing around with flimsy weapons for a couple hours then hitting the Chinese buffet. Kung fu deserves the reputation its gotten.

maybe you are speaking of shopping mall schools in mid america, but if you go to a real kwoon this is not the case.

QUOTE]chances of you finding the real deal is about as likely as getting struck by lightning.[/QUOTE]

its up to the seeker to find a good sdchool. there are good and bad in any business its up to you to dig through the ****e

the proble is most peopel are basing this sweeping assumption from a litte or maybe no experiance personally. If you live in Oklahoma and you look at kung fu school in the mall taught by some white guy who wears a kung fu uniform and teaches 5 years olds then of course its going to be hookey crap, I employ you to look into a REAl school. and perhaps you will change your mind.

can I ask how many schoold you have joined to come up with your opinion?