I was in a barns and noble yesterday in long island new York. first time I have been back in the states in 5 years. the first thing I did was go right to the sports section of the magazine stand, and to my surprise no kung fu tai chi magazine, about three mma mags and a grappling mag. then latter to the martial art book section, I think I saw two or three kung fu books at least.
then I met my first kung fu teacher I ever had. an American guy from my home town, we hung out and chatted .one of the first thing he said[kung fu is dead, mma killed it] if anyone wants to learn to fight they just go to mma, … I thought this happened to some extent ,but not to the point that kung fu would be wiped out. how about the kung fu school owners here. are you guys doing ok?
it is the opposite in reality, but I like that name tightly whitey cause in china cause of our size it fits tightly ,you know with the women there and all
I don’t know if it is killing CMA, but it certainly is challenging its current model. As far as learning practical fighting skills, it’s a little hard to compete against the MMA model when many CMA schools in America have been playing it safe with their family-friendly promoted environment for so long. American CMA students put on big gloves and a bunch of pads and then are told not you strike the face or below the waist, to pull all kicks and punches, and to approach sparring with a 3 point score mentality. In addition, when training chi-na, how many partners are actually resisting and fighting back rather than simply stand there quietly and allow the other to perform the technique in a repititious fashion? MMA schools train with resisting partners/opponents who aren’t pulling their punches… to a certain degree. Like American Boxing, they are constantly training with a resisting/aggressive partner.
In the eyes of MMA, we’re nothing more than corner street after-school TKD and Karate programs. CMA schools play it safe to protect their family-friendly environment in a sue happy society in order to protect their business. It’s understandable. Unfortunately, it comes at a price.
Interestingly enough, the few CMA schools that I have been to that try to focus more on a pragmatic approach and less on promoting a family-friendly environment tend to have horrible foundations in their techniques. Not really sure why that is.
Just my two cents. I’m probably wrong, but… eh… live and learn.
in my experience ,most of the schools in the states will spar and do application, which is more then you will get from traditional kung fu teachers in china. it is like pulling teeth trying to get that stuff from them, don’t get me wrong if you travel with a group of tourist to train and pay them a half a years salary they are willing to open up. but that is not my case. I live there and train with teachers that never had a foreign student before.
In the past, if anybody wanted to learn to fight they would go to a boxing school, a karate school, a judo school, a tap dancing school, a pilates school, a beautician school. They would stay ten thousand hells away from a kung fu school. MMA has not done any damage at all. And SanDa only serves to justify what people “knew” all along: TCMA does not work. This is what is killing kung fu: The perception and the transmission of said perceptions through improper teachings.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1253158]We are far from dead.
In Northeastern Ohio alone you can study:
Four styles of Mantis
Four styles of Monkey
Choy Li Fut
Hung Gar
Northern Shaolin
Two styles of Shuai Chaio
Three styles of Taijiquan
Wushu taught by a “shaolin monk”
Wing Chun
Bagua
Hsing I
All that is within about an hours drive from my school.
Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine and several kung fu books can be found at Books A Million less than 2 miles from my house.[/QUOTE]
What do you think the ratio is between serious wrestlers and serious kung fu in Ohio? What do you think is more likely for one to train after or during a wrestling career, kung fu or MMA?
MMA hasn’t killed kung fu because for so long kung fu has refused to engage. The examples are few and far between.
Anyways, they are two different things. Two different goals. Kung fu is more than just fighting, whereas MMA is pretty much all about sport fighting. Where MMA may win in the cage, they will probably not win in a sword fight. MMA is a big deal in pop culture these days, but kung fu will always push along. In some cases it will readjust with the times, in others it will stand tall on it’s original principles. Depending on the style, this may or may not be a good thing. The only thing kung fu really needs to do is recognize that old doesn’t mean better. What was tried and true at one point is not always the case at another. Like any martial strategy, it should adjust to the times. You don’t see people flank tanks with horses and sabers because it’s obvious that is just stupid. When it comes to kung fu larpers, it’s not so obvious because so many are caught up in the romance of it and never actually have to use it in diverse ways. But those who do use it in modern context with a wide variety of opponents and styles seem to do ok. Time will tell. And as far as it compares to MMA, again, we’ll see. MMA is growing in China, it will be interesting to see how much of their kung fu core they bring into the ring five/ten years from now.
Do I think MMA has killed CMA? No. For one thing, CMA is still in existence. Secondly, CMA has always lagged far behind TKD, karate, boxing, wrestling, etc., in popularity and visibility. Many people from these arts have long belittled CMA. If anything, MMA has probably had a far more chilling effect on these various arts, particularly karate, TKD, etc., in a certain age bracket.
In Taiwan, TKD has been the number one MA for decades. I’ve also heard the same was true in Hong Kong. This was long before the rise of modern MMA.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1253177]Do I think MMA has killed CMA? No. For one thing, CMA is still in existence. Secondly, CMA has always lagged far behind TKD, karate, boxing, wrestling, etc., in popularity and visibility. Many people from these arts have long belittled CMA. If anything, MMA has probably had a far more chilling effect on these various arts, particularly karate, TKD, etc., in a certain age bracket.
In Taiwan, TKD has been the number one MA for decades. I’ve also heard the same was true in Hong Kong. This was long before the rise of modern MMA.[/QUOTE]
You could argue that MMA is more related to JMA’s, KMA’s, western boxing, wrestling etc than it is to CMA’s. One could also argue that most of the crossover between MMA and CMA is purely incidental. This is just a natural consequence of self segregation. It doesn’t really speak to the quality.
I would be interested in hearing from any full time school owners, how has this effected the student enrolment, and can some still make a living running a traditional kung fu school in America?
MMA is the best thing to happen to Kung Fu in a long time. It is forcing people to look at reality, or be resigned to the Wing Chun forum.
But seriously, you can adopt the realistic training of Kung Fu, preserve the art and be relevant, or you can live a fairy tale and be a joke.
Last night I went to a Muay Thai show. Two sanshou fighters fought and each won their match by TKO. I went to ask how they came to do sanshou, there is none around here…their coach had learned TCMA and sanshou…he said, “We knew it worked, it only needed some minor adjustments.”
Kung Fu is alive and relevant to his two fighters at least…I believe there are more.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1253162]that is very good to hear, are you a school owner?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am. I have practiced martial arts for about 45 years and taught for 35 years in Indiana and Ohio. The last decade that I have taught, I have only charged other instructors. All others can train without a fee.
My students are always looking for people to train with/against. If you are ever in or passing near North Canton, Ohio, please look us up. Anyone that has a school within a reasonable distance that would like to invite my students to come and spar, we would be honored to accept the invitation.
In my school we practice mantis boxing. We use both ancient and modern training methods.
I can tell you which kung fu schools in my area don’t have a clue about fighting and which have some of the toughest fighters that I have seen. Sadly, the clueless ones are the majority.
I believe that kung fu schools will always survive because we have the most to offer over the course of one’s lifetime. Exercise, strength building, flexibility, self-defense, sport fighting, forms, weapons, Chinese medicine and Chinese philosophy/religion. We are a cradle to grave art.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1253202]Yes, I am. I have practiced martial arts for about 45 years and taught for 35 years in Indiana and Ohio. The last decade that I have taught, I have only charged other instructors. All others can train without a fee.
My students are always looking for people to train with/against. If you are ever in or passing near North Canton, Ohio, please look us up. Anyone that has a school within a reasonable distance that would like to invite my students to come and spar, we would be honored to accept the invitation.[/QUOTE]
I like your business model, and your open door policy. By removing the necessity of student income in making overhead, do you find you attract those more willing to go hard, at least more so than other TCMA schools? Or rather, do you find you can go harder without losing too much of what would otherwise be a timid student base, in favor of those more willing to come in and bang?
Those who want to learn to fight and have some capacity as a fighter for whatever reason have many traditional options to choose from. MMA is now one of those popular options. Kungfu offers many other benefits as do a number of other cultural schools of thought/practice. Different times and space but Kungfu is more popular now, internationally than ever, special thanks to the WWW Viewer’s Association. http://www.blackbeltmag.com/category/daily/martial-arts-history/?topicid=9327
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253199]MMA is the best thing to happen to Kung Fu in a long time. It is forcing people to look at reality, or be resigned to the Wing Chun forum.
But seriously, you can adopt the realistic training of Kung Fu, preserve the art and be relevant, or you can live a fairy tale and be a joke.
Last night I went to a Muay Thai show. Two sanshou fighters fought and each won their match by TKO. I went to ask how they came to do sanshou, there is none around here…their coach had learned TCMA and sanshou…he said, “We knew it worked, it only needed some minor adjustments.”
Kung Fu is alive and relevant to his two fighters at least…I believe there are more.[/QUOTE]
mma is the best thing that happened to kung fu. anybody that complains and miss the good ol days are aging hippy nerd poosy.
