I think someone said it best when they said that the end function is the same, but the techniques and methods employed are different. You could say this about all martial arts.
There are external fighters that are way more “functional” fighters than internal folks. Why? Because they use simple techniques that they have practiced over and over and over and over again…there are internal martial artists that are way more “functional” fighters than external fighters. Why? Because they use simple techniques that have been practiced over and over and over again…
Different fighting strategies, different mechanics, different training methods but all reach for the same goal of developing a “functional” fighter.
You get my point…it’s not the style, internal or external. Its all about the person, how well they’ve utilized their training time and how they can make their art “function” in a fight.
You can only do this by getting in the right physical condition that is required of your art. You can only do this by repeating the foundation excercises required of your art everyday, over and over again. You can only do this by repetitively practicing basics and simple movements everyday, over and over again. You can only do this by practicing whole forms, breaking them into pieces and practicing them everyday over and over again. You can only do this by practicing 2-man training excercises everyday over and over again. You only do this by practing free sparring everyday over and over again.
The point is as it has always been is that Kung Fu = diligence and hard work. Putting the pieces together slowly, repetitively
everyday, over and over again. Everything else is just semantics.
It does have to do with the individual for the most part. Style is an issue when the styles training methods are inneffective for combat. There are so many variables that go into it, that ideally it will always be situational and there is no static variable equation that will amount to anything.
There are people with no training at all who could best a t’ai chi practitioner of ten years. It is possible.
I will say this however. Your chances of survival and success are much higher when your actions are a product of self-defense.
Different fighting strategies, different mechanics, different training methods but all reach for the same goal of developing a “functional” fighter.
This is the only statement my experience allows me to agree with, and only to a certain extent… and only because it’s safe to say. All the rest of what you state is theory and conjecture.
Tai Chi Chuan’s ideas are what make it internal. If those ideas are only understood from a purely mechanical and tactical perspective, its internal nature will never be appreciated.
Tai Chi Chuan’s ideas are what make it internal. If those ideas are only understood from a purely mechanical and tactical perspective, its internal nature will never be appreciated.
Tai Chi’s movements are what make it “internal” not it’s ideas. The movement is inside. You can think what ever you want about it. Until you learn to DO it, it’s all words. The only way you learn to do it is by practice, practice, practice. And I mean practicing the really simple stuff like standing meditation, the movements Peng, Lu, Ji and An. My teacher’s teacher Sifu Feng Zhiquiang stated that his teacher Chen Fake would make him practice one movement for 3 hours until he got it exactly right. 3 hours!!! How many Taiji players out there adhere to this sort of training regimen? How many would quit if their Sifu asked this of them? And we wonder why traditional MA’s are in decline?
A good teacher is invaluable…and hard to find. But the bottom line is . The only way you become invincible is to practice more than anyone else. And I mean quality practice.
You both appear to be talking about two functional ways of attaining the same thing.
The principles of t’ai chi will lead a practitioner to an understanding of yin and yang, hence giving them the ability to empty and fill, to yield and attack. These ideas and concepts are not confined to t’ai chi, nor is t’ai chi the only place in which they can be learned. These ideas are natural ideas, and are provided to people who have attained a natural understanding of themselves and share it through principles which are natural to humans. By upholding these principles as ideas and applying them in all aspects of your life, from tai chi to having a conversation on a message board you began to internalize them.
On the other hand, Fu-Pow is saying that through practice these ideas become real and without practice they are just words. This is also true for most people, as we almost all come from cultural and environmental conditioning that has an effect on our natural instincts and causes us to become unnatural in our ways. Through proper physical practice of applying the “ideas”, one will also begin to internalize these methods.
The key thing I would say to keep in mind is that the ultimate goal of the t’ai chi is to return the practitioner to their natural state. This means ideally that the natural state is inborn to people and is not something that only t’ai chi can provide or that can only be gained through the martial arts. I would however impress that there are very few methods that are as systematic and as carefully designed to bring a practitioner to that state of being as the internal martial arts are.
I am thinking about this style and internal vs external issue. I took it as a way of how you organize your training so your training can be effective.
I am thinking that if you are the kind of person who are very firm on your believes and will die and sacrafice all for what you believes in, you can start with internal.
If you are the one who focus on the realistic world and took the signs of survival around the environments and be immediate effective, I would think you can start with external.
After a while, people will grow and change, and just took what they need to grow, no need to mind about internal or external, they would eventially come to the some point when they arrived at the high level.
Consider the phrase “All martial arts are fundamentally the same because they all have the goal of developing a functional fighter.”
Realize that ‘martial arts’ is a group of practices designed to develop a functional fighter. Substitute that into the phrase.
It is now “All practices designed to develop a functional fighter are fundamentally the same because that all have the goal of developing a functional fighter.”
This phrase is meaningless. Which is to say, no information is transmitted in saying it. A computer or unlingual german-speaker could produce this phrase without knowing the definition of any of the nouns, or be told this phrase without learning anything new about the topic.
How many Taiji players out there adhere to this sort of training regimen?
raising my hand
You’re talking about developing a “functional” fighter? What is your definition of a “functional” fighter? How do you propose to develop your own functional fighting method? Are you planning to test your method at some point? Until then, you really have no clue whether or not what you outlined will be functional for you.
You stated in your Òmouth-boxingÓ thread:
I really don’t even care who your teacher is or how “pure” your lineage is. Because it doesn’t tell me anything about you or how hard you worked.
The bottom line is can you apply your art. Do you put in hard work and effort everytime you train? Did you spend the long, dull tedious hours perfecting your art? Can you fight and win?
Everything else is superficial.
Interesting…
Have you ever seen of those people whose names you dropped fight?
Have you ever seen Chen Fake fight?
And we wonder why traditional MA’s are in decline?
You may wonder why but I donÕt. I know why TCMAs are in decline when I read posts like yours. Not my problem.
Can you tell me how many Tai Chi players are testing their method in the toughest competitive arena they can find? You? If not you, then whom? Please name some current players who are doing this…
But what Fu-Pow is hypothesizing is his formula for developing a “functional” internal fighter. I’m saying that there’s a lot more to it than just the physical/biomechanical and tactical (hitting, power generation, etc).
My experience doesn’t support his ideas beyond theory and conjecture because I’ve been there, done that.
IÕm also saying that Tai Chi Chuan and its application as a fighting method is internal because of the ideas contained in its practice - not because of itÕs physical and tactical aspects. Those are certainly a part of it, but those things are universal to any good fighting method.
What makes Tai Chi ChuanÕs fighting method uniquely internal is something very different than what everyone talks about on these boards.
I agree with that Shooter. I would even go further to say that the foundation of taoist philosophy upon which the t’ai chi is built is the essential role in the effectiveness of the art at higher levels. If you can yield to any oncoming attack and maintain your integrity every time, you will be impossible to defeat. If you yield and then press ie. rollback, press or rollback, push it doesn’t necessarily mean you won anything, you did however clear your space and act naturally.
It is in our nature to yield and maintain integrity or dominate everything in our path. Taoist philosophy says something similar to ‘When the philosophy of taoism is practiced completely it will turn a man into a king or a sage.’
All the mechanics can be there and one may still not respond effectively. I would however say that if the mechanics are not there the person will have some physical trouble defending themselves. If you can overcome your fear of fighting and being attacked, you will be more likely to respond effectively.
When talking of chin-na with my instructor, he made a comment that stuck with me ‘The only thing that locks up is the mind’. I have found that statement true time and time again, and essentially showing me that our biggest ally can also be our toughest adversary if we do not learn the way it works and how to use it as our tool and not it using us as it’s tool.
Shooter if you have any comments or insights into what I have said I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Originally posted by Shooter
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IÕm also saying that Tai Chi Chuan and its application as a fighting method is internal because of the ideas contained in its practice - not because of itÕs physical and tactical aspects. Those are certainly a part of it, but those things are universal to any good fighting method.
What makes Tai Chi ChuanÕs fighting method uniquely internal is something very different than what everyone talks about on these boards.
[/B]
But what exactly is it that makes it different, in your opinion? I used to think it was the ability to mnipulate someone’s center. i.e. the skills developed through push hands. But if that’s the case, BJJ and Shuai Chiao both contain that. It’s just not actively trained. It’s something that happens after you put your time in.
Or is it the focus on this aspect of training?
I don’t mean to come across as crude Shooter, but you haven’t really said anything concrete. Just that it’s the ideas and that it’s very different than anyone here is saying.
The only thing I can see in Taiji that’s not trained in other arts is the yielding/leading ability you get through push hands. I’ve seen the same power generation in other arts, I’ve seen the same spontaneous technique in other arts, I’ve seen the development of “effortless” power in other arts.
The only thing that may be “different” in Taiji (in my experience) is the softness and the way the art feels to other people. But that is not too hard to get if you pay attention to the principles.
I would even go further to say that the foundation of taoist philosophy upon which the t’ai chi is built is the essential role in the effectiveness of the art at higher levels.
Indeed…not just the higher levels though. Even the beginner can center their functional fighting method around TCCÕs ideas from day-1. In the process of one’s evolution through the stages from crude, gross energy management to the higher levels, the mind leads, the body follows.
Not saying that a person needs to practice taoism, or even taoist humanism to approach the training from a “taoist” perspective.
Water Dragon, my opinion doesn’t matter. I have nothing concrete beyond a practical understanding.
Consider the phrase “All martial arts are fundamentally the same because they all have the goal of developing a functional fighter.”
Where did I say this? My point, unlike most other people, is not that internal and external are the same at “higher levels.” But rather that they develop DIFFERENT skills by DIFFERENT training methods but to deal with the same problem…how to defend one’s self. If I blast you in the neck and knock you out with an “external” Sao Cheui functionally how is bouncing you out with Peng energy and knocking you to the floor any better.
What is the SAME is that the ability to apply these skills comes from constant and continous practice. This is why what should properly be called Wu Shu is called Kung Fu…which mean hard work and effort.
Too much of the conversation on this board is centered around which style or faction or faction of a style is better than the other. The amount of time and dedication that the individual puts in is much more important in the long term.
You might say “no duh.” But you’d be amazed out how many people I’ve seen want to talk about MA’s as opposed to actually DOING them. Then they sit in awe of other people and assume that they somehow recieved better instruction or have some innate magical power.
This thread was inspired by my own experience teaching students. I realized that in order to teach them properly I had to force them to do the simple movements over and over again to learn them properly. Then when they would connect the movments and their form would that much better. Dedication to basics is very, very important.
Shooter-
Let me just to respond to all your smartass remarks by asking you this. Was Taiji always coupled with Taoist philosophy from its inception? Or was it that Taiji already embodied Taoist principles and someone recognized this and connected the two? I’ll let you make the call in all your infinite wisdom.
Indeed tai chi can be approached from a taoist perspective without a person having ever learned tai chi. There are many individuals whom are already quite natural in their ways, and have gained the innate natural human qualities from other activities.
One of the people I study with has spent the last 30 years of his life as an artist. Just being around him you can feel he gives off a lot of love and care for those around him, and you can see in his eyes a true sincerity of self and care for those around him. Those are qualities you will find in people who have become closer to their true self or who are acting as their true self.
Fu-Pow, I agree with you the importance is defending yourself. T’ai chi is a set of principles set into motion on the physical plane. However, we know from experience that an attack takes place first on a spiritual level, which is essentially saying that the more developed and keen your awareness is to your surroundings, the more adept you will be at intercepting an oncoming attack even before you see it physically manifest itself.
Once again I would emphasize through my experience that it is the principles that one learns through doing the tai chi that bring a person to the natural state. These principles are actually universal, such as having integrity, yielding when necessary, staying centerred, moving with the least amount of effort needed.
These are things that are natural qualities of people, however that does not mean all people possess them. Tai chi teaches one to cultivate the qualities of a natural person. Take a look at a child. Almost all children are naturally loving and caring and enjoy one another. They do not make distinctions between race and physical blemishes unless they are conditioned to see those as being disfunctional.
I remember having special education students in my classes in grade school and having the teachers introduce them with a title that immediately cast a shadow on them. From then on I would think, ‘oh that’s johnny, the handicapped wheelchair person’. This way of feeling people is unnatural. The tai chi and internal styles will teach a natural approach to life and a natural approach to self-defense.
Went a bit from the martial side of things in this post =)
