Hi!,
After many years at external martial arts, i have recently been researching the internal arts and have taken 4 lessons on bagua. There is just so much to it and everything is so intricate. My question is “Is there time to do this art justice and for this art to do justice for you (In the event of a real life situation)” Between work life, home family life and friends i have worked it out that i can only spend 3 hours a week at class and then approx 6-8 hours a week practice on my own. How many years to even get a good grounding in the eternal so i could defend myself effectivley? Would i be better off with good wing chun or dare i say it “Karate”.At least thats not too complicated and i whave got good in about 10 years of practice but then i think “Is this as good as Internal kung fu. and theres no healing benefit either”. Please let me know your experiences and views
It isn’t impossible. You aren’t starting from scratch, so you got a leg up on some people. The higher you go in external arts anyway, they start to turn into internal arts eventually, even on a limited level of internal work.
When starting any internal art, 9-11 hours a week is good. There’s all the time in the world. Remember, with internal work, the point is to calm down and slow down before going superfast with moves. Not trying to cram tons and tons, hours and hours every day to make large advances.
When you stop trying to cram a lot in for an internal art, that’s when you advance. Your sense of focus and discrimination get a turbocharge. With internal arts, you focus on breaking things down more and more, reaching a certain level of perfection with each part before you move onto the next thing. As you go along in the cirriculum, you increase the level of perfection for your skills.
Believe it or not, what you learn in an internal art perfects your external knowledge base. Where you are right now, you are not ‘unarmed’ for fighting. What the Bagua will do is take what you already have and you’ll add the perfection you gain to it. As time goes on, you’ll find out which way martially that you want to go.
So, remember. Slow down, relax and enjoy the classes. It’s less about doing internal arts justice because it’s more about allowing internal arts to do justice to you.
yes, and it’s important to understand in Bagua that Circle walking is your best friend. I’ve been learning Bagua for a little over a year and my teacher has been cramming things into me because he knows I’m leaving soon and it will be a while before I can come back but normally I would like to spend maybe 3 years on basics and circle walking. You can spend 30 min to an hour circle walking every day and that would be enough to last a good long time. Then add some Zhan Zhuang in there, 9 to 11 hours a week is good. Circle walking is the “gong” of Bagua and is your best friend.
I in no way meant to put karate down or disrespect it. Taught properly its very effective but in my opinion about 80% of Karate clubs in the UK don’t teach it as the effective art that it is. This is one of the reasons i have turned to the internal arts.
My suggestion:
Train as much as you can, with as much focus and intent as you can. Quality always trumps quantity.
Do not worry about “hours” or days, or weeks. Those are all creations of our mind, the body does not speak in these terms.
Soft / Hard it is the oldest/silliest debate out there. All systems have qualities of both. No one thing trumps another (other than maybe Gun - Fu!). Find a good teacher, do not worry about style. Only a good teacher can train you, not a style or technique.
Subscribe to decent computer porn in lieu’ of getting advice here on KFO. Time and money much better spent.
Cheers
Jake
i disagree greatly with you saying neither are better. the softest thing in the universe overcomes the hardest. now, it takes a very long time to be able to reach the point of complete softness in a fighting situation, but when you are you cant be hurt or even touched. also, the power of internal is so amazing, in my opinion the hsing yi strikes are more devastating than the ones in karate (not counting mas oyama - the shorter version of his name- who could kill a bull with a punch)
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;791940]My suggestion:
Subscribe to decent computer porn in lieu’ of getting advice here on KFO. Time and money much better spent. [/QUOTE]
You mean don’t listen to yourself and forget the porn? :D:D:D
simondo: your practice is part of your life, and your practice and life reflect each other, regardless of what you do; if you choose to do a so-called “internal” art, then you have decided to pursue an approach which typically tends to be less immediate results oriented and more concerned with awareness-building, although that is a very gross generalization; the key is to allow whatever you do come alive and to be infused with freshness and spontinaity - this way, one is able to rise and meet the challenge of life without reacting from one’s unconscious habit; certainly diligent practice is necessary, which at the beginning appears more regimented than later on, but don’t hold on to a preconceived notion of what that might entail at any given moment; as there is ultimately nothing to achieve, do not be too concerned with end result - this might inhibit you more than help in this particular sphere at the beginning;
inner practice is, IMHO, one of many extant means of slowing down the frenzied path of life in order to be able to listen to one’s own heart and come to know oneself; this may create turmoil at first, but ultimately it allows one to be responsive as opposed to reactive; what good martial skill if we go home and speak harshly to our loved ones?
of course, one may also gain fighting skill, but my sense is that the most efficient way to doing that is training some sort of MMA format; IMA practice will not typically afford one the opportunity to pressure test techniques freely against a resisting skilled opponent…
BTW, all this talk about soft overcoming hard ultimately is silly - soft and hard are in and of themselves relative terms, and if soft always overcame hard, then there would not be balance - each is “victor” in its own turn when circumstances are meet
Keep in mind that, while the softness of water will wear away the hardest rock…in about a million years, TNT will accomplish the same thing in a weekend!!
While the willow, or bamboo will bend under the weight of snow, properly applied force to a specific point will still allow them to be broken.
It isn’t about hard or soft, it is about applying principles of Tao according to ones needs. Sometimes the application of a hard principle is more efficient than the application of a soft principle.
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;792053]Keep in mind that, while the softness of water will wear away the hardest rock…in about a million years, TNT will accomplish the same thing in a weekend!!
While the willow, or bamboo will bend under the weight of snow, properly applied force to a specific point will still allow hem to be broken.
It isn’t about hard or soft, it is about applying principles of Tao according to ones needs. Sometimes the application of a hard principle is more efficient that the application of a soft principle.[/QUOTE]
oh yeah, and did I mention that there are also super-secret, closed-door, internal ground fighting grappling skills, that are only known to a select few, that are so deadly that they cannot be mentioned out loud, for the very utterance of these techniques will change the ebb and flow of the ch’i in the meridians,changing yin to yang, which will result in a reversal of the bloodflow, causing the blood to flow back into the heart,building up pressure until it explodes sending streams of blood from every pore and every orafice in the body HOY!HOY! NOIVIN! LADYYYY!!DEAN? DEAN?and the only cure for this is wriitten down in the lineage-bearor’s scrolls, handwritten in the Monk’s own handwriting, taken off rubbings of the stone tablets, embedded in the walls of the grottos deep below the earth’s surface, underneath the cave of DaMo on the grounds of the Shaolin Temple,which Mew Hing (the only true correct spelling of Miu-Hing)the senior most monk, who defeated Bak Mei after he killed Jee Shim(the only true correct spelling of Jee Siem)entrusted to Fung Donald Duck(the only true spelling of Fung Do-Duk) which were encapsulated in the Monk’s Blood Palm of Glorious Thunder Palm,Palm meds(the only true correct term for noi-gung-not to be confused with my meds, which is a ritalin/thorazine ****tail) which when translated using the rosetta stone of the Wu-Dan (the only true correct spelling of Wu-Dan) monastery into english, is PEZ.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;792067]oh yeah, and did I mention that there are also super-secret, closed-door, internal ground fighting grappling skills, that are only known to a select few, that are so deadly that they cannot be mentioned out loud, for the very utterance of these techniques will change the ebb and flow of the ch’i in the meridians,changing yin to yang, which will result in a reversal of the bloodflow, causing the blood to flow back into the heart,building up pressure until it explodes sending streams of blood from every pore and every orafice in the body HOY!HOY! NOIVIN! LADYYYY!!DEAN? DEAN?and the only cure for this is wriitten down in the lineage-bearor’s scrolls, handwritten in the Monk’s own handwriting, taken off rubbings of the stone tablets, embedded in the walls of the grottos deep below the earth’s surface, underneath the cave of DaMo on the grounds of the Shaolin Temple,which Mew Hing (the only true correct spelling of Miu-Hing)the senior most monk, who defeated Bak Mei after he killed Jee Shim(the only true correct spelling of Jee Siem)entrusted to Fung Donald Duck(the only true spelling of Fung Do-Duk) which were encapsulated in the Monk’s Blood Palm of Glorious Thunder Palm,Palm meds(the only true correct term for noi-gung-not to be confused with my meds, which is a ritalin/thorazine ****tail) which when translated using the rosetta stone of the Wu-Dan (the only true correct spelling of Wu-Dan) monastery into english, is PEZ.[/QUOTE]
you do realize that the Brotherhood must now hunt you down relentlessly…
a true master of tai chi can only be stopped by very VERY few.
This notion is one of Taiji’ worst enemies.. This notion is a by-product of Taiji, not a goal.. Scott correctly identified the process, “principles of Tao”, Taiji is a vehicle for expressing those principles.. correctly expressed principles of Tao are not confined to any art, it is beyond Art..
The above link involves Mas Oyama’s challenge to old Tai Chi master Chen. According to Oyama, he was bettered by the Tai Chi master.
Thank you[/QUOTE]
has it never occured to anyone that this whole thing might just be a fabrication? it belies a lack of knowledge of the mindset of these guys: for example, if you are karate teacher who wants to incorporate some non-linear stuff you came up with, you don’t say you did it - that would be arrogant; so you “learn it” from a taiji guy you happened to meet and who happened to be better than you - that creates legitimacy (e.g. - like taiji guys claiming their art originated from taoist San Chang Fung - instant street cred); regardless, I would take it with a huge grain of salt - taiji doesn’t make anyone invincible, it doesn’t give you a level 30 saving throw against melee attacks…
