Southern Mantis - Why so secret?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
161

Tit and Tat

Steven T. Richards, you are very funny. You and JF continue making veiled politics and threats toward someone here although you’ve yet to name the person?

You’ve been doing it the entire thread and now you accuse me of being the person that you speak of. You guys are really paranoid. You certainly seem to hate someone. Prozac might help.

You cannot guess who I am because you don’t know me. And I don’t know you except by what you write here. I do give you credit though, your posts are coming around in terms of training. You have completely changed positions from the form sambochin being worthless to now saying its included in your system under a different name. etc. and the same with chongs.

And JF’s honesty is refreshing when he says hes here only at your request and that Forums suck swamp water. Maybe you ought to release him from here? What kinda hold do you have on him? Sounds like a cult? Or Hakka voodoo?

Looking back over your posts here what I find the funniest is not your viewpoints on training, or your misconceptions or even differences in SPM, its your tit for tat praise of each other and yourselves. Your need to be recognized is very large.

Your training ideas are getting better though.

162

likuei,

You’ve successfully defined yourself as a troll -how sad.

Specifically, where on this thread have I said that Som-Bo-Gin is ‘worthless’?

I have not.

You ask questions but you evade answering them.

Given that you claim knowledge of the opinions of Hakka elders, and, given that you claim to be part of Lam-Sang’s lineage, and that said elders disaprove of the internet, what might they think of an extensive web presence and very large web site developed by a non-Chinese in Lam-Sang’s name?

Such a site exists, why haven’t they closed it down or otherwise expressed their disfavour?

As for my need to be recognised, look above to post 9 on page 7 of this thread. The situation is expressed fully and publicly just as it is.

Save your venom for your own little cult and its inbred concerns.

You’ve had your invitation.

163

Y A W N

Still the in-fighting continues.

164

Yuan Fen

The Springer post:
I am not SPM period but the principles you mentioned that are understood in the developmental path are similar but not the same as in my style- most likely because of the proximate southern origins of both arts.

-Sounds reasonable to me. Variations on a theme.

The differences are in how rooting and mobility are achieved.

-Agreed, the mechanics diverge at that point and this is manifested in both the technical and tactical presentation of the hand.

Good post.

-Considering who you are and what you’ve achieved I thank you most kindly.

165

Jon

Good’ay Jon,
My own SPM training started many years ago with my cousin Peter Lee, he actually introduced SPM to me and my brother back in 1981. We use to train days and nights, you know the usual CG SPM stuffs, chai sau, chongs and drills. I think the most powerful thing that I developed during that time was the massive say ban ging (four directional power), then after that was the gow chui, pak sau and pai sau. After a year later I begin to develop the clawing power and skills etc etc.
The soft side did not kick in until a few years later with circular and spiral palming techniques, and side stepping entry techniques.

Hope this help.

Aussie John.

166

Jon - A Suggestion

Jon - In order to get things off center in this comparison discussion you might consider taking one of the Sap Jyut Sau from Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen and presenting it according to the formula found in Tid Sin Kuen.

That would provide us with a common lexicon and if we’re lucky Yuan Fen will come into this as well. If he agrees to participate it will give us three southern systems with each presenting a quasi-analogous structure.

Some helpful ground rules are to focus on the common elements of the respective techniques for the first work through and then pick up the divergent points on the second pass.

This will give us decent working platforms for the technical aspects and allow us to develop an accurate mutual understanding of terms.

Once this is accomplished we can transition into the tactical or application based elements of the technique(s).

This is just a suggestion so if you all ready have something in mind by all minds go with it.

167

Dis the Troll

Steve - Just dis the Troll, he’s been identified and hasn’t a clue how it happened. Let’s just say that it’s a source qualified and accepted as authoritative by every Circuit Court in the USA and allow him to ponder what that means.

The good thing is that his students have access to this site and in time, if they haven’t all ready by virtue of his completely devoid of substance posts, come to see just how little the Troll knows.

I do retract my previous assertion that the Troll is not inside the door as clearly he is. He is inside the door to the hen house, hunkered down with the other no name, no lineage, no skill and no guts, chickens.

Of course, in the near future he will be sanctioned and totally discredited when revealed internationally as a poseur so I suppose it really doesn’t matter.

Jon should be posting a starting point in the near future so that we can get on with the open and fully public discussion regarding energy production mechanics.

I look forward to bringing some small portion of real, authentic, traditional JL SPM into the open light as the Troll and ilk of his sort spew forth nothing but dark, stale, dead air.

168

Tit For Tat

Y A W N -

Y A W N -

169

Ok this is tricky for me

This is not easy for me as im only at an intermediate level myself and so only going on my limited knowledge.
I will briefly state how external power is used in Hung Ga then go on to give a brief discription of the 12 bridges in Hung Ga.
Im going to avoid going to far into things i havent trained personaly, as dont want to have to then answer questions on things over my head.
External power in Hung Ga comes from the ground. A strong stance and body is the foundation for this type of power generation as it requires the whole body to litterly push though the floor using the legs.
This is why Hung Ga fighters often hug the ground. By keeping the knees bent and the body low it provides a moveable yet stable base. There is also a lot of waist action in the strikes and the body is kept behind the movement so as to add to the force of the impact. Its like a chain that moves though the feet to the knees to the hips to the sholders to the elbows shooting its way out of the fingers or fists
Internal power is a little different but im not there yet :{
My training is mainly Gung Gee Fuk Fu[taming the tiger in the I shape] at the moment.
I will now discribe briefly the word formula behind the 12 bridges as this is where much of Hung’s defensive and offensive power comes from.
1 ‘hard’ simply to use strength and muscle or to go from soft to hard.
2 ‘soft’ relaxed flowing movements, often circular.
3 ‘forcing-crowding’ a way of colapasing the structure of your opponent. Often an outwards semi circlular movement frequently tiger.
4 ‘strait’ delivering force from the waist to the arms in a strait line.
Seen in many Hung movements right up from the strait punch.
5 ‘dividing’ usualy represented by outward and lateral strikes often using backfists.
6 ‘steady’ using the solidity of the stance and the strength of the forearms. Often represented by both arms strait with the palms facing forward.
7 ‘inch’ proberly the most stressed, this power is the ability to make small movements produse large damage. Comes from strong muscles high energy and ging.
8 ‘lift’ usualy an outwards and upwards movement [think uppercut] from a strong stance with a low centre of gravity.
9 ‘reserve’ this relates to not wasting energy and to sence, often seen in Hungs famous 1 fingered techniques.
10 ‘sending’ this is where an attackers force is redirected for the use of the defender. Usualy circular soft movements.
11 ‘control’ usualy represented by semi circular movements towards your centerline with powerful forearms. Used as a way of interupting things like centreline blasts.
12 ‘settle’ often represented by twin swinging fists, force is generated by dropping one limb whilst lifting the other.

That was my personaly training its not gospel and if any other Hung Ga people would like to correct what ive writen or debate it please do so.
For all those who have never heard the term ‘bridge’, ill do a fast run down…
Think of your body and your opponents as a castle, your bridge is your way of spanning the gap between you and your opponent. You could also think of your power and energy as being your soliders you send accross your bridge.
Hence its possible for instance to bridge without transfering soliders[power]. Might sound confusing but it really can open up a lot of avenues.
Hope this can serve as a small comparison.
JF Springer im afraid that Fu Hok is the form ill be starting briefly and Tit Sing is still a way off yet. So i wont touch on those two forms just yet. Ive included the 12 bridges anyway though as i think these represent much of Hung’s fighting power.
Also power generation varys from animal to animal and element to element so ive simply listed the default beguiner external generation.

170

Re: Tit For Tat

Originally posted by likuei
[B]Y A W N -

Y A W N - [/B]

Wow you really must be bored… begs the question why are you hanging around? Perhaps you have some kind of ‘reason’ for trolling this thread? After all you wont answer strait questions and wont take part in the discussion… so errr why still here?
“Your training ideas are getting better though.”
Perhaps you wish to teach us something yourself?

171

Jon - A Suggestion

Good effort on the Hung Gar recital Jon. Let me suggest that you pick one bridge and marry it to one strike. Feel free to take it directly from Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen as that is what you are focusing on these days. That will give us the Hung Gar part of the equation.

We need to move in a more deliberate manner rather than go straight into a full blown whole system analysis. The differences in body mechanics between Hung Gar and JL SPM are very pronounced. Taking it step by step will allow us to examine and come to some understanding with regard to how these differences occur and the rationale for same. This is kind of like the old question “How does one eat an elephant?” Answer: “One bite at a time.”

As for the Troll please ask your Sifu the following question as I believe it is your best interest to hear it from your teacher: How would he value the opinions of someone who posted on an open forum that was afraid and refused to list their name, afraid and refused to list their lineage, afraid and refused to name their Sifu, afraid and refused to accept an open challenge to gong sau, yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?

The Troll is proof positive of the truth stated as “Lin Kuen Buht Lin Gung, Do Lo Yat Chung Hong.”

172

Interesting thread for sure.

This is easily the most informative thread I have ever encounterd at this site. Does anyone know how this all relates to Roger Hagood and his school?

This “Pazzmoot” person was Mike Feld or some other student of Roger Hagood.

173

JF Springer

I will certainly pick out something a little easyer to swallow. I wanted to show some of the various forms of bridging in general in my style before going to far into anything individualy.
Might have to give me till tommoro as its late where i am but one thing made me post tonight.
“yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?”
Is this refering to Likuei?
Please please tell me this is not true:( I refuse to belive someone of Hung linage would be so rude:mad:
There cant be to much truth to the linage as thats a far fetched resume for any Hung Stylist, unless it was learnt by mail order. He then has the gaul to call people “sifu-hopper”.
It pains me to think someone learning the same morals and skills i am is being such a cowardly fool:mad:

174

Pazmoot is an Iron Ox disciple.
I consider him a personal friend.
There is nothing further to it than that.

175

It’s a Hypothetical Jon

“yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?” Is this refering to Likuei?

[Yes]

Please please tell me this is not true I refuse to belive someone of Hung linage would be so rude

[He’s not of Hung Gar lineage or any other for that matter. The question I asked you to pose to your Sifu is a hypothetical. The Troll claims to be “inside the door” with 3 SPM Pai. The only door this cowardly, no nothing, no name, no Sifu, idiot is inside is that to the hen house with all other gutless wonders]

[I gave you the question to ask your Sifu so that he could give you his take on how he would consider some punk like the Troll if the scared, lying, freak claimed Hung Gar status as he is claiming JL SPM status]

[Your teacher’s response would give you a perspective outside those who are involved in this matter]

There cant be to much truth to the linage as thats a far fetched resume for any Hung Stylist, unless it was learnt by mail order.

[That’s exactly one of my points. What he claims is a complete fantasy that he’s created and come to believe. The Troll is a classic example of why brothers shouldn’t marry sisters and then have children as it results in much mental illness. The Troll’s repeated reference to Prozac is a clue that he’s mentally ill and no doubt on many anti-psychotic medications. His medications apparently aren’t working very well for him]

He then has the gaul to call people “sifu-hopper”.

[His fantasy has him “all powerful” “all knowing” and “inside many mysterious doors.” It’s part of his mental illness, Jon]

It pains me to think someone learning the same morals and skills i am is being such a cowardly fool

[He’s learning nothing as he keeps making the same mistakes. That in of itself is proof positive he is extremely stupid and the uneven posts reflect great mental illness. He goes from semi-Chinese persona to a morally outraged white boy persona. No doubt, he’s suffering from some form of schizophrenia compounded by psychotic features, primarily delusions of grandeur]

[I forwarded a number of his posts from this thread, which I had collected daily, on to a friend of mine who is forensics analyst for our FBI. This gentleman specializes in linguistic and document analysis. I also provided my friend with a number of posts from threads from the past, both from this forum and others, as well as some writings authored by the person I believed to be the Troll. They were redacted so he had no clue as to the author(s) or dates of any of the posts. He correctly selected and associated all posts that my originals had names ascribed to. He also correctly selected, associated/identified the written materials from the source I believed to be the Troll. According to my friend, they were written by one and the same person]

[I then asked that he take the materials to one of his peers who is also employed by the FBI and specializes in psychological profiling from written materials. This gentleman was kind enough to provide me with a complete psychological profile which is noted above re: mental illness. So, none of what I’ve posted is speculative. It’s all true to a degree that is accepted by every Circuit Court as well as Federal Court in America]

[Just click on his profile, go to the bottom of the profile page, load him into your “ignore list” and he will appear on this thread on par with the content of his posts to date. Namely, absent]

176

Hello Mantram

Glad to read that you are enjoying the thread thus far as it’s getting quite a bit of attention from lurkers. Just to let you know, it’s going to get much better as we are moving beyond the Troll and into some substance dense material regarding real, authentic, traditional Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

I checked your profile and it’s a blank. So that you don’t get mistaken for a stooge of the resident Troll how about providing us with some information regarding yourself? It would negate any potential mischaracterization of you as well as allow us to gain some understanding of your perspective in the event you wish to post on this thread.

After all, save for the Troll, we’re all honorable people looking for some honest and open discussion in the light with regard to things typically kept hidden and in the dark.

Certainly can’t be any harm in telling us who you are and what your past MA experience consists of now can there?

177

JF Springer

Now i know why not to post on public message boards when your lacking sleep and have had little to eat. Stupidity tends to insure.
I compleatly misunderstood most of your post, thinking your ‘ask your sifu’ questions where directed at Likeui.
I now understand you perfectly:D Benifit of sleep:rolleyes:

My sifu would of course be mortified.
Its always sad when someone of no substance decides to portray themselfs as a authority. I take things as there given and making claims without backing them up is futile in my books. Both yourself and Mr Richards have made very clear your high knowledge your art. Our troll on the other hand continues to sling mud without having a base to stand in. My favorite saying will be said again ‘people in glass houses shouldnt thow stones’.
Anyway enough on our resident troll…
I will be posting my given bridge and technique proberly tommoro as today is new years eve here. So i hope everyone has had a great year and has an even better one next year.
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
Thanks again to all those taking part and helping make this the great discussion its turing out to be:D
Special thanks to JF Springer and Steven T. Richards, you guys are both an inspiration, your knowledge and time are appreciated hugely.
Jon

178

Hello Jon,

Sincere thanks, and seasons best wishes to you and your loved ones.

Lets keep the discussion going.

Cheers,

Steve.

179

Good Thread.

Hello Steve and Jack.

Glad to see a exellent conversation about South Mantis kept under control by the two of you.

I hope to see the conversation continue.

Glad to see the Troll was identified.

Rich

180

Hello Rich

Hello Rich:

Welcome and good to see you on board. Please join in whenever you please. Anyone from GM Gin Foon Mark’s Pai is welcome as the man’s hands are pure JL SPM and pure Gold.

Oh yeah, the Troll has been properly identified and is sweating bullets trying to find an avenue of escape. What a total idiot. I’m giving him some more time to sweat before I authorize a global posting identifying him along with all the substantiating documents attached.

Please pass along my respects to GM Gin Foon Mark.