Which style if mastered yeilds the most effective self-defense system? Why?
may the force be with you
As someone who has trained both extensively, and as someone who has used both in a law enforcement environment, I’d say Mantis, provided that the practitioner is widely experienced in real world no BS fighting, and, that he can de-code his system effectively, so that it translates into a living, fighting hand.
Wing-Chun is easier to grasp, and, it promises an awful lot - in its initial stages. siu-Lim-Tao (the Little Idea) is a ‘good idea’, it teaches people how to move bothe hands/arms/bridges in a co-ordinated way. you an make yourself ‘safe’ with Wing-chun very easily against unsophisticated or not too aggressive attackers.
That is my experience of it in the real world.
Mantis CAN be far too abstract, rigid and mechanical, if it is not understood. the learning and progress curve for a Wing-chun practitioner is steeper initially but, if the Mantis man persists and is taught properly (as well as LEARNS properly), then the Wing-Chun curve peaks earlier and actually falls away.
In my personal experience which is by no means in any way universally applicable: Wing-Chun starts out as a good idea but then gets somewhat carried away with itself, and so becomes too abstract and fails ultimately to deliver. Mantis starts out where Wing-Chun ends - abstract and somewhat unreal, but, as I’ve said if persisted with under the right conditions becomes a very high and refined skill.
There are two elementary ways to compare in martial arts, you can compare between the ‘men’ involved, and you can compare between the techical spects of the systems. A good man in a technically inferior system is still a good man and may win over a poorer man in a better style.
However, if the comparision is ‘technical’ then the systems themselves are tested.
again, in my personal and therefore subjective experience, Wing-Chun will ‘technically’ better Mantis 9 out of 10 times in average practitioners.
With advanced exponenets however the ratio is reversed.
That is one reason why I am a Mantis man rather than a Wing-chun man. I’ve had equal exposure to both at equivalent levels. My Wing-Chun for example started nearly 30 years ago and I’ve tested it for real. My Mantis is as a disciple of Lee-Yin-Sing Pai Grandmaster Lee-Sun-Wah (Lee-Lien-Ah-Gore). I’ve also tested the Mantis for real and against each other at the highest levels.
No doubt some unreflective people will wonder how I can say that the average Wing-Chun man will be better than the average Mantis man 9 out of 10 times? well, as I’ve said that is my experience, if you want to be average then so be it expect to be bested. if you want to work exceptionally hard and master SPM then you can reasonably expect to reverse the equation.
Wing-Chun is not a homogenous system, there are very marked variations just as there are between its practitioners. Its the same in SPM of course.
The ‘pulp’ versions of the two systems both have their exploitable weaknesses. It is interesting to learn what they are, not only about the one but about both.
If you don’t know your systems weaknesses, then you’ll be very suprised when you opponent demonstrates that he does.
The biggest weakness of all is BS and dogma. That should our first battlefield.
“If you don’t know your systems weaknesses, then you’ll be very suprised when you opponent demonstrates that he does.”
Good words.
There is a story - though I can’t find the reference - about a challenge match between Chow Gar GM Ip Shui and a top Wing Chun master. All I can remember is that they fought for one hour, neither able to gain advantage, before agreeing to call it a draw. This is some testament to both men’s skill and stamina.
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
Lee Yin,
Thank you for the appropriately copius and convincingly intuitive reply. I always appreciate the opinions of articulate and well-experienced individuals. Very helpful.
Do you recommend Henry Poo Yee’s Pai?
may the force be with you
Hi,
Many thanks for your kind words.
‘Grandmaster’ Poo-Yee - note please that I use the term of him in great respect, is someone to be highly recommended. His Pai and techniques/skills are different to most other branches of Lam-Sang’s art - from my understanding. Bruce Campbell is an excellent fellow and I recommend that you mail him for further information, but yes I would highly recommend him and of course Bruce too.
‘Grandmaster Mark Foon’ (term as above)and his Pai are equally well worth studying with, Scott Eng and Richard Hodson are the best contacts that I’m aware of.
Then, if you want a look at Lee-Yin-Sing’s Pai in the USA you could always approach John F. Springer, Grandmaster Lee’s appointed USA rep.
Kindest Regards,
Steve Richards.
Todd
You wrote me a week ago and you wanted to know of a school on the left coast and I sent you an address. You wrote back saying you have already contacted the school and you were well aware of it. This school I wrote you about, is the only one I no of in your area. My point is, you will first have to sample a branch to get an idea of what you are looking for. Asking loaded questions will get you no where. Like WC against SPM? These are questions that mostly cause hard feelings when answered and serve no other purpose. Steve done a good job at answering the question, but by doing so, has most likely made some upset. Although he didnt try, only gave his opinion. I have trained most of my life, and found, one has to go with what you think.
If you want to know if Sifu Yee can teach his system, go spend sometime with him and see if you like it. You no the saying about opinions? Right? Everybody has one. Sifu Yee is a great person, and a teacher, this is my opinion. I only hope these stupid questions of yours, dont start the controversy between branches again. This is the internet and people will be brave. I feel your question was a shot at my teacher. If you would have ask about other teachers, I wouldnt think so. And if you werent trying to start trouble? You should have ask it off line. Now! If you want to train with our branch, Steve has givin you his opinion. Go train!
B.P.Campbell
Hi Bruce,
You raise an imporatnt point re potentially upsetting some people.
I should make it very clear here and now that my comments are my own based on my training in both systems over many years and pressure testing them in a real world law enforcement environment.
That does not imply a universal truth for my subjective experiences of course.
Andy Liu-Kin-Ming, my Mantis brother, trains Wing-Chun and Mantis at the same time - and this no doubt suits his life and his learning.
My main interest at this time of my life is if TCMA really do deliver, and by what standards should systems and style sbe judged upon.
There are plenty of critics of TCMA - many of them ‘real world’ street fighters, bouncers, bodyguards, military men etc. who say that TCMA rely on too complex movements and simply fail under any real pressure. These people often quote the near legendary Fairburn and Sykes, who developed the British SOE and USA OSS Close Quarter Combat and Close Quarter Battle systems (CQC/CQB). these men where ex Shanghai Policemen and had acres of real experience as well as training in Japanese and TCMA systems.
In my view the best TCMA teachers can deliver both on an ‘art’ and a ‘practical’ level. However, the proof for such ability is often nothing more than hearsay, or sadly even BS supported thru a network of mutual psychological needs between teacher and students. This is not unusual any anthropologist worth their salt could point it out and not just in martial arts cultures and sub-cultures.
The best Wing-Chun men are as good as the best in any Pai, but then the ‘best’ of all Pai tend to even out amongst themselves.
There are hard questions to ask about what we want from TCMA. it is quite possible to build an elaborate comfort zone quite divorced from reality and yet for it to be supported through all sorts of off the wall dogmatic, cultish and nonsensical beliefs. That is how the critics of TCMA can get away with their comments - there is SOME truth SOME of the time to them.
It can take a long time to sort out the real deal from the fantasy and at first few people have anything to go on that could help them guide themselves through it all.
If you go to a Wing-Vhun line that is REAL in the sense that it has a good fighting tradition and teachers who REALLY know what they are talking about then you will have a great FIGHTING art that is second to none. Same is true for SPM.
As my Hop-Gar teacher used to say:
‘There is no number one in literature and no number two in Kung-Fu!’
Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee is a graet and VERy reliable source for the SPM art, and Bruce Campbell is one of the very finest practitioners of TCMA in the USA.
It would be great if they could come to the UK and offer a seminar here. VERY many people would benefit.
Best of luck Todd…
Potential Argument
Todd - Since Bruce has all ready provided you with a school location the answers to your questions are for you to resolve. You’re damned fortunate Bruce actually took the time to respond. I would have blown you off as you come across as some “window shopper” rather than a person serious about pursuing the TCMA path.
Bruce - The various problems of old you alluded to aren’t going to arise again. If nothing else, the short lived federation put an end to that crap.
As for pissing off WC players I for one couldn’t care less. A large majority of them are so wrapped up in their “sacred geometry†BS that they’re unmindful of reality.
The ones who can make WC work as intended won’t take exception to Steve’s comments as they will understand his statements in the proper context.
Not to say the “good ones†will necessarily agree with Steve, but they will acknowledge that WC has some “holes†in its overall technical structure.
Ultimately, it all comes down to the man as not a single system in any medium anywhere in the world has ever been in a fight. John
Well said Jack.
I know that those who ‘know’ will understand the sublime truth in your words.
Steve.
Thanks
Thanks Jack
I just didnt want to see the same old same old starting again. The best way to see if Sifu Yee can teach his system is experience his teaching. Dont take others word, Good or bad. He is very open with his teaching, and can be found teaching at any number of locations across the U.S. in a years time. Locations and times are always posted in advance. Nothing is kept secrete. I believe something can be said for that.We welcome others to join us.
B.P. Campbell
Bruce Campbell’s reply to Todd Bringewatt
Dear Bruce,
Thank you once again for your previous help on the subject of Jook Lum. I don’t understand your recent reply, however, to my questions posted on the Kung Fu Online forum.
Namely:
- Southern Praying Mantis vs. Wing Chun: Which style if mastered yeilds the most effective system of self-defense? Why?
and
- (addressed to Steve Richards) Do you recommend Henry Poo Yee’s Pai?
You wrote of my above post the following:
“My point is, you will first have to sample a branch to get an idea of what you are looking for.”
Agreed. But choosing a branch to sample includes consulting the experiences of others. I included you as such an authority in addition to Steve Richards because I was impressed with your writing and reputation on the subject of Jook Lum.
“Asking loaded questions will get you no where.”
You are making assumptions here. I asked the above questions for a single purpose, i.e. academic answers – such as the response Mr. Richards so willingly gave.
“Like WC against SPM? These are questions that mostly cause hard feelings when answered…”
If my questions cause hard feelings it is because of the insecurity of others, not because I harbor ill intentions.
“…and serve no other purpose.”
I do not believe that all systems are equal and I want to know which ones are better than others. This is my purpose.
So far, by my own limited research, I am most impressed with WC and SPM. I want to know which is better and why? Maybe they’re equal. I don’t know. That is why I am asking.
“Steve done a good job at answering the question…”
Yes, he did.
“…but by doing so, has most likely made some upset.”
Steve was merely attempting to honestly answer an honest question. All he was trying to do was help. If this is upsetting to someone, so be it. Someone so easily upset is not worth worrying about in the first place.
“Although he didnt try, only gave his opinion.”
I agree. He (Steve Richards) didn’t try (to upset anyone). Yes, he gave his opinion and I am glad he did. It sold me even further on SPM.
“I have trained most of my life, and found, one has to go with what you think.”
I agree. That is all I am trying to do here. Gathering data from others simply helps me to have something to think WITH. This includes all the data I’ve gotten from you.
“If you want to know if Sifu Yee can teach his system, go spend sometime with him and see if you like it.”
I didn’t ask if Sifu Yee can teach his system. I’ve no doubt he can – and ably at that. I merely asked if Steve Richards recommends his Pai.
I know Mercedes makes a great car but I still might ask a car expert if he would recommend Mercedes before I went about purchasing one.
As for spending time with Sifu Yee, I certainly hope to do so in the near future. It would be an honor.
“You no the saying about opinions? Right? Everybody has one.”
Yes, everybody has opinions but some are more valuable than others.
I asked for Mr. Richard’s opinion because he is a seemingly competent and obviously valued SPM practitioner and teacher. Same reason I’ve consulted with you in the recent past.
As it turns out, Steve gave a glowing review of your teacher and sold me further on studying with your Pai.
“Sifu Yee is a great person, and a teacher, this is my opinion.”
I’m certain of it and value your opinion.
“I only hope these stupid questions of yours, dont start the controversy between branches again.”
Was this your intent to insult me? It worked.
“This is the internet and people will be brave.”
Understood. But perhaps “childish” is a better word than “brave”. If they were brave they wouldn’t have to hide on the internet to “be brave.”
“I feel your question was a shot at my teacher.”
I’m sorry you feel that way. It would have been respectful of you to have simply asked me about this issue rather than making assumptions and anouncing your conclusion in a public forum (same with calling my questions “stupid”). Very classless.
As is the actual case, no, my question was not a shot at Mr. Yee. The truth is I have a deep respect for your teacher, largely due to your own writings on the subject.
But it should be alright for me to ask others if they recommend his Pai. So far everyone I’ve asked has said yes – a big reason I’m interested in studying your system.
“If you would have ask about other teachers, I wouldnt think so.”
I asked about Mr. Yee (and not others) because I currently have the opportunity to study with one of his Pai.
Why did you think I was attacking him? Could it be that like any other consumer I am merely gathering as much data from as many sources as possible to make an informed decision before being closed on the subject?
“And if you werent trying to start trouble?”
If you weren’t certain I was trying to start trouble why were you willing to respond as if I were? Why not ask me?
“You should have ask it off line.”
Why? What’s wrong with asking if Mr. Richards recommends Mr. Yee in public? What trouble could come of that? I am merely asking for a man’s opinion. If it happened to run counter to another’s opinion so what? We’re all adults at Kung Fu Online and capable of communicating civilly.
As it turns out, Mr. Richards loves your Sifu. My question resulted only in free PR for you and your teacher. You should be happy I asked. Your defensive stance makes it look like you have something to hide (though I believe you do not).
Also, asking a question like that in public invites response from others who wish to respond. I want response. I find it helpful when I am not 100% closed on a course of action.
Now, of course, troublemakers do abound. But they’re easy to spot and even easier to ignore. So why worry about them? I don’t shrink from public discussion just because there are bullys in the world who may get involved.
“Now! If you want to train with our branch, Steve has givin you his opinion. Go train!”
What’s with the exclamation marks? Seems rather patronizing. Are you angry? What is this?
Also, it’s rather arrogant of you to tell me, “Go train!” Commands are for dogs. Maybe I’m not done asking questions. Maybe I’d like to ask other individuals than only you and Mr. Richards.
I had planned to study with your branch. And in spite of your recent reactionary, unfair and quite frankly, very rude response to my post, I would still love to do so.
I would also love to come to some sort of understanding with you on this matter, as you seem to me a man of integrity and honor despite your recent treatment of my communication.
It is my hope that your response was born out of simple misunderstanding or perhaps even the stress of dealing with those less honorable than I in the past.
In any case I wish you well and look forward to the opportunity of studying the rare and beautiful art of Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai very soon.
Most sincerely,
Todd Bringewatt
may the force be with you
Hungmei’s reply to Todd Bringewatt
Dear Hungmei,
“Todd - Since Bruce has all ready provided you with a school location the answers to your questions are for you to resolve.”
And I’m not allowed to resolve my questions by asking people their opinions on the subject? Ludicrous.
“You’re damned fortunate Bruce actually took the time to respond.”
I agree.
“I would have blown you off as you come across as some “window shopper” rather than a person serious about pursuing the TCMA path.”
Then I’m glad I didn’t ask you.
You’re calling me a “window shopper”? Might as well call me a dilettant while you’re at it. Do you really know me this well? I didn’t ask how I came off to you. How rude.
I’m NOT serious about pursuing the TCMA path. I’m serious about becoming a competent fighter. It just so happens that Wing Chun or Southern Praying Mantis seems to be the route to go.
I’m trying to gather as much data on this as possible before visiting schools. That way I can visit a handful and make my decision rather than visit two hundred because someone advised me not to ask anyone’s opinion about anything but ONLY look directly and see for myself.
If I could rely ONLY on my own personal observation I would, but it’s not very practical. Even Einstein admitted to standing on the shoulders of giants. I came to this forum hoping to find some giants (like B.P. Campbell and Steve Richards). Why do you object to my asking them – or any potential others for that matter?
“Bruce - The various problems of old you alluded to aren’t going to arise again. If nothing else, the short lived federation put an end to that crap.”
Happy to hear it.
“As for pissing off WC players I for one couldn’t care less. A large majority of them are so wrapped up in their “sacred geometry†BS that they’re unmindful of reality.”
Couldn’t care less? Large majority…wrapped up in their…BS…unmindful of reality? You don’t exhibit much common courtesy or prudence of speech here.
“The ones who can make WC work as intended won’t take exception to Steve’s comments as they will understand his statements in the proper context.”
Good to know.
“Not to say the “good ones†will necessarily agree with Steve, but they will acknowledge that WC has some “holes†in its overall technical structure.”
Interesting viewpoint.
“Ultimately, it all comes down to the man as not a single system in any medium anywhere in the world has ever been in a fight.”
Well put. I couldn’t agree more.
You sound like a decent fellow. Please respond to my post and let me know your viewpoint on my response to your response.
I hope to create a better foot to start out on.
may the force be with you
Wing Chun vs. Southern Praying Mantis
As an interesting side note:
I posted the same “which is better”-type question in the Wing Chun forum and no one objected in the slightest. Many responses, some humorous, many highly informative. Worth checking out. Lots of praise of SPM by WC practitioners. Pretty interesting. Actually sold me even more on SPM.
may the force be with you
Todd
Yes, I read the WC site and agree with you. The problem I had with was you asking about Sifu Yee. As you well no, there was much about the different branches written on this site in the pass. Questions such as yours about my teacher could get them started again and this is what I dont want. Questions such as which? SMP or WC? could start problems, and I cant see what else you could have expected? Todd; if you meant nothing by it, fine. And if you are going to follow the advice of the answers, and are sincere about my teacher? Then I should expect you to in roll sometime in the near future in one of his branches. If not? Then I think we all no the answer.
B.P.Campbell
Go Todd!
As someone who has a less than perfect character, as pointed out on this board, I ask you to continue to take notice of the character of those who answer your posts as they reveal themselves not too far from the rest of us. One thing is important in studying any art, and that’s resonating with the teacher! You must bond together regardless of differences. When you find someone like this in either Mantis or Wing Chun, you will learn much. Studying a fighting art should not depend on political affiliations but instead on personal interaction.
Electronic Uncle STF
Personal interaction on a web forum is a little limited in scope.
Todd, for what it’s worth, Bruce and Jack are amongst the most senior people to actually post on this forum, and, they are certainly amomgst the most senior members of their generation of martial artists.
It’s precisely because the internet is so impersonal that problems can occur. I know that personally I’ve misjudeged people on this and other forums - both positively and negatively.
It is far from easy to tell if people are genuine, particularly if they utilise their right to anonymity. Those people who are open take extra risks, as web forums can provide a soap box for troublemakers and frank non-entities to stir up trouble and compensate for their lack of achievement.
It (the forum)can of course also provide the first steps towards real friendships and a lot of real learning between people.
Sometimes it takes time to sort out just who is who and what is really going on.
I answered your question as honestly as I could, given my personal experience. Also, given that experience, I can unhestitatingly recommend Grandmaster Yee and his disciple Si-Fu Bruce Campbell. GM Yee has other disciples of course but they are not known to me personally - so that define sthe reasonable limnitations of any ‘personal recommendation’ that I could make.
As for Scott Eng and richard Hodson, they are the people who I know and trust from GM Marks’ Pai.
Jack is from my own pai and my Brother under GM Lee.
If politics were an issue then these three branches of Jook-Lum wouldn’t even communicate with one another.
I enjoy friendly and open relations with many, many other Pai not just in SPm and its various branches (including non-Jook–Lum) but also in arts as diverse as Tibetan Kung-Fu and Wing-Chun.
I try my best to be direct and open.
If openess is absent between Pai it is THEN that politics intervene in my belief. On an internet forum, anonymity although protective for some for very good reasons, also can allow a lot of troublemaking and, political strife.
Your call friend, and the best of luck.
Kindest Regards,
Steve Richards.
They’re at it again!
Hungie and Steve show thier obvious superiority again! 
All knowing? Superiority Complex?
a quote from above: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Todd, for what it’s worth, Bruce and Jack are amongst the most senior people to actually post on this forum, and, they are certainly amomgst the most senior members of their generation of martial artists.[/quote]
Fukien, let it be, they are all knowing… 
all senior to everybody around…MY GUESS- six months plus under their new grandmaster after an unsuccessfull atempt to secure the magic of previous branches they studied. It shows in their announcements and their political attempt to remain in communication with other branches, for what?, friendly comparison?, future proof of superiority? or BORG assimilation?
You should talk to your Sifu about this before it becomes the next SPM fiasco.
Let me point out the obvious
Self-Thinking Follower = fukien
fukien = Self-Thinking Follower
One and the same person. (this is too easy 
)
Crap Sucking Trolls
Steve & Bruce:
Checking out some of the other forums it is apparent they’re still arguing over the relative merits of one individual line over another in the same Pai.
It’s also apparent there a few trolls who post nothing of substance because they know nothing and engage in goading tactics from afar (Squat to pee wussy boys :)).
I’m all for simply ignoring the little gutless bastards and responding to those who express a genuine interest in our systems, e.g., want to find a teacher in their location in order to learn, not engage in semantics gamesmanship.
Since we are such a rare system, and pretty much know the people in SPM through one medium or another, we have been able to resolve any previously existing conflicts. The simple and pure act of mutual respect forever laid to rest any bad feelings.
This forum can serve the useful purpose of being a resource for those who truly desire to learn SPM as we are somewhat difficult to find and there aren’t a hell of a lot of us around.
IMO, there is no sense in even acknowledging the existence of the idiotic trolls. They labor in ignorance and that’s a good fate for them 
John