This is a discussion ive moved over from the “does you style have all the answers thread” Ive moved it becouse it was taking over the thread, so I thought it might do better here.
Southern Mantis is a very hard style to find accurate information on, its also very secretive and has been adopted into several Hakka familys. Im posting this thread in the hopes that southern mantis practioners everywhere will share with us a little of what they know.
What ever you feel comfortable saying.
We will take it as a given that anyone speaks only from there own training and experience so please no posts saying “thats not spm”.
That said… Would anyone like to tell us.
There history according to there particular pai.
Any techniques or tactics favored eg locking, presure point work, methods of power delivery. Do you favour particular fist types.
Maybe tell us a little of your training and how long you have studyed.
Even if you just drop the name of your school it will help in giving an idea how many different pai’s there are around.
Steven Richards also made several very informative posts in the before mentioned thread. I would also encourage everyone to read those as well. They are an excerlent start.
Come on all you spm people out there hiding in the grass:D
Is there much good southern mantis in Australia or even
UK? Not a “catty” comment. Genuinely curious. How many accomplished sifus estimated in each of the two countries?In many styles in a decade or so
new “grandmasters” seem to pop up.
YF
As a ‘gadfly’ you ask a reasonable question, but you should accept that it is likely that such remarks phrased that way will either insult a lot of people or they will laugh at the ignorrance of someone who is not even from a Hakka art openly displaying what he doesn’t, in his ignorance ‘know’.
If you don’t know anything about Hakka arts in the UK and Australia, why not ask?
Whatever.
To my own knowledge, SPM has been very well represented in Australia since the 1960’s - e.g. malcolm Sue as a disciple of Ip-Shui’s Chow-Gar. There are plenty of others - most of whom never speak out openly. There are also some very accomplished westerners in Australia who studied under Sue, for example Vietnam Vet. Les Williams whose street knowledge and real world fighting skill would make him a world acknowledged fighting Master if he had been born oriental.
In the UK Wong-Yuk-Gong’s Pai under the late Grandmaster Yeung-Kum has been established since the 1950’s as has Lee-Yin-Sing’s Pai. These two groups will not normally teach westerners.
I know of only two schools that do so, and they teach a mixed curriculum. The major China Towns in UK cities all have Hakka communities and all have Hakka arts.
To get anywhere in opening these closed doors you have to earn the respect of the Chinese masters. Hakka Kung-Fu is not ‘pulp’ martial arts.
As for the alleged sudden upspringing of practitioners or as you say grandmasters of these arts, just because they were not/are not public does not mean that they were not/are not there.
They do not trust easily and generally keep their art to blood Hakka, or Chinese. Frankly, sometimes it’s no wonder.
When a particular group from a hitherto secretive art makes itself public thru the internet or martial media, then the less reflective may think that there is/are no other Pai. A wrong assumption.
Most of the ‘real’ traditional Chinese Kung-Fu is kept to themselves within therir own community. It is that community that bestows acknowledgement and recognition on individuals - not the internet, not forums, not magazines and not people who are effectively ‘outsiders’.
Hi Jon,
Great idea, I’ll do what I can to help.
Respect,
Steve.
southern praying mantis
One of the main reasons that southern praying mantis is kept so secretive is that it was supposedly developed by the royal ming family while they were hiding in the southern shaolin temple. And since no one was supposed to know they were there, i guess the style never got known either.
Re: southern praying mantis
Originally posted by RedBuddhaStyle
One of the main reasons that southern praying mantis is kept so secretive is that it was supposedly developed by the royal ming family while they were hiding in the southern shaolin temple. And since no one was supposed to know they were there, i guess the style never got known either.
Amazing. So from what I gather from kung fu myths and the true chinese history gleaned from martial arts video’s. No one can tell hakka from yuen. Southern chinese from northern chinese. Or manchurian from southern chinese just by looking at them.
Uttlerly amazing. It just befuttles the mind. I learned that wing chun was used to kill manchurian’s cavorting with chinese women in brothels!
Scene 1:
“Where you going?”
“Oh, gonna blow off some steam at the flower blossom club”
“Have fun, but dont forget to wear your conspicuous manchurian lord outfit”.
“Oh yeah, thanks. I forgot.”
Scene 2:
[Close up of door. Girls giggling. Two feirce wing chun fighters stand ready to kick down the door]
>crash<
“Hey, who are you?”
“We are of the red boat society. We are here to reinstate a non-creative dynasty that stagnated for hundreds of years before it was overthrown by manchurian barbarians!”
I was going to finish the chain-punch-of-death scene but its probably too violent for younger audiences.
Turiyan – Flames ignored. Like I need a reason?
In memory of Chuck Schuldiner, R.I.P Dec. 13, 2001: http://www.emptywords.org/
Steven Richards:
If you don’t know anything about Hakka arts in the UK and Australia, why not ask?
((Careful about over generalizations or stereotyping based on reading a post or two.. It’s because I do not know the UK and Aussie scene on Hakka arts dissemination- that I did ask!. The Hakka are very very careful about (not) sharing their arts
and some non Hakka who claim to know a Hakka art thoroughly
are said to get bits and pieces according to some Hakka folks.
The business of exploring a closed group activity by westerners is not limited just to SPM. It would be good to see a knowledgeable Hakka’s evaluation of the state of the Hakka arts in the non Hakka world. Several have referred to the “politics” of it all-
in the SPM world.
BTW UK and Oz are not the only places where the Hakka diaspora has taken place. There is a close knit Hakka community in Calcutta and some are Indian citizens and there was camaraderie in my youth with Hakka friends. I do NOT do SPM
but I do have a good SPM friend or two and I have seen some SPM. My “gadfly” like questions are not just about SPM. My art is wing chun but I happen to think that the vast majority of wing chun folks including in UK and Aussie land don’t have a clue on the art. And I ask the same kind of questions in my art as well.Several of the southern hands were fairly closed groups and
yet some sharing in days of southern rebellions in anti Qing days did take place. ))
A note to a different poster ( Red Buddha style) : there was a Hakka migration to the South in the face of the Qing expansion towards the South.
Now discussions are over. Time fpr monologues?Turiyan the ex Brahmin and ex ex ex
has arrived!! <g>
turiyan-
turiyan-
If u haven’t realized or figured it out yet, the shaolin monks were hiding the royal ming family. Not that the family was in the temple and no one saw them. I just wanted to clarify that. The shaolin monks were like saviors of China, and hiding the royal ming family was just another way they helped out their home country.
Chow Gar
Steven ive read several posts of yours making reference to Chow Gar, I know Aussie John is proberly the one to be asking this, still can someone maybe let me know a little of the defining features of chow gar is it very different to other forms of spm?
Also on the subject of Hakka spm, is there much spm that is not hakka and if so how in your personal experiences has it compared?
Ive stated this before, though ill say it again:
Everything will be taken as personal exposure! I will not assume anyone to be speaking for the whole of spm or even the whole of there pai. This way we can all be more free to give our opinion.
To try and open this up im going to ask a few more questions relating to spm that i have personaly seen.
I have a video of someone performing the 18 point form from southern mantis, is this a common form?
It looked very nice, quite short and fast and almost totaly handwork.
Are there many kicks in your spm forms?
Ginger Fist
Just wondering,
Has your girlfriend seen you training or been around when this goes on?
Does your mother and sisters embrace her as part of the family?
If so is she learning the style as well, or does she and her sister have any interest in kf at all.
hey steve i have a book pheonix eye fist
by donn f draeger and a malaysian sifu(sp),its a popular text,its in every library here in van,do any of you know what im talking about,pt2 was just printed it says the style came from a nun who adopted to orphan girls and raised/taught them in a cave,it talks about hakka,i’l have to get back from my frien cant remember the fine detials.
This book has come up on the southern board,do you guys know if its spm or which style of hakka may it be,also any idea how many styles within the hakka clans.I think at wingchunkuen.com it goes into hakka styles in the articles and the bulletin boards.
steve if the p-eye book is spm,we must chat through emial,maybe you can delve into the intricacies of the pheonix eye,in my hopga theres a pheonix eye in a heel-adduction"mantis stance"to the solar,can you answer through my emial.
If the style is not spm and you hakka guys have some links or info into what style that book is exactly.
thank you,& sorry for interrupting this discussion with a old topic.
Yuan,
IF I’ve misjudged you then please accept my profound apologies.
Given how on previous threads you made it your business to trash dialectics, western science, philospophy anthropology and dialectics; make completely unsolicited attacks on other things that I was involved in martial arts wise; introduce SPM politics and then be unable to answer my questions - it was a reasonable thing to at least start with the premise that you were following a similar line.
Of course I know full well about the Hakka dispersion around the world. My Hakka family have roots throughout S.E. Asia and some of my Si-Gung’s disciples also found their way to Australia.
As for the Indian sub-continent I’m familiar with its martial heritage -espescially its direct and anthropologically studied influence on Tibetan and later western and ‘southern’ Chinese arts.
You raise the ‘non-Hakka’ issue, I am completely open about my position - and about my acceptance by the Chinese. I state openly what I accept and do not accept about Chinese culture - and my reasons for same. I do not claim any superior cultural knowledge to anyone else and I certainly do not claim parity with blood Hakka or Chinese people culturally or within their martial arts. I do however make my position and status clear as bestowed by my Hakka family - as that is in their gift, howsoever that may irritate some other people.
A re-reading of former posts between us should suffice to make the situation clear.
Hello Jon,
I had hoped that Aussie John would answer that question re Chow-Gar. My position is that there is huge diversity within systems that use the title SPM and that diversity is as great between branches of one named sub-system as between the larger branches of the art.
I’ll mail him and ask him to contribute - I know that he is very busy.
He would be ideal to answer as he has studied a number of different branches.
Hi again Diego,
Used to speaking with you under the Tibetan threads!
The book you refer to gets a lot of controversial attention. I think that the first thing to remember with SPM systems is that the politics will intervene in most cases, before a discussion matures.
There a number of groups or individuals who are mainly concerned with establishing their ambitions for recognition or even dominance of the SPM field, and some of them will use what oportunities or tactics that they can to attack anything that is not connected to their particular lineage or aggenda. That book has suferred in that way on a number of other forums.
My position is that it represents a probable off-shoot of the SPM tradition, developed in a specific cultural/geographic environment, but I have no certain knowledge. I wouldn’t write it off out of ignorrance or because it wasn’t my ‘pai’.
Hop-Gar uses the Phoenix-eye a lot - and very well too. I’ll mail off thread if you wish?
Best Regards Friend,
Steve.
Jon,
The 18 Point Form you mention is to my knowledge found only in the Jook-Lum branch issuing from Lam-Sang. It isn’t as far as I know to be found in Wong-Yuk-Gong’s lineage and is not practiced or studied in Lee-Yin-Sing’s teachings.
Speaking for Lee-Yin-Sing’s system, kicking methods along with all san-sau applications are taught ‘live’ and oportunistically as an integrated method, rather than abstractly within a form. this is common practice for Lee-Yin-Sing. The other Pai practice kicking methods in their forms but use them as in Lee-Yin-Sing, appropriately, rather than drill them abstractly.
Your question leads to some interesting points on how SPM approaches combat applications and training, and, the true role of forms practice.
Best Regards,
Steve.
Mr Richards
Steven T. Richards
Forms in my humble opinion should be treated as examples of how to apply certain techniques they shouldnt represent the whole teaching of a system. They also teach the body and mind to work as one.
Hung Ga is a system that in form doesnt contain many kicks either, yet masters like Wong Fai Hung were best known for there kicking ability.
Forms are [at least in my sifus school] like a backbone and way to remember techniques.
I beleve you understand a form when you can jumble it up and put it back together again at will.
That being said im only a junior really 
so i cant be to sure what ill think in another 5-10 years;)
Whats your schools use of forms? In terms of what role they play.
Have you found any similaritys between the Hung Ga you studied and the SPM you study now? They look at a face level quite different but looks can be just that.
Hello Jon,
In LYS’s Jook-Lum, the single long form is the equivalent of the ‘genome’ for the system. The individual movements are as genes, combinations as gene sequences and the sections as chromosomes. Just as in genetics, the end result is not apparent in the structure of the genes themselves. The individuals expression of the style is then as the phenotypical variation’.
I’ve published on martial arts anthropology ustilising the above metaphor in greater detail:
‘From post-modernism to dialectical syncretism: undestanding the anthropology and cultural evolution of martial arts systems’.
Paper presentation to the Society of Martial Arts 1st International Conference and Graduation, Sports and exercise Science Faculty, Manchester Metropolitan University; July 1998.
A shortened version of the read paper is published in the Societies ‘Proceedings’. Vol 1.
The above shows how LYS’s people are ‘application driven’ it is a fighters art. The refinement necessary to produce and apply such a ‘form’ is a high level skill, not easily applied and not acquired at all without the requisite pressure testing.
Form in LYS refers to structure as much as anything else. Students ‘feel’ the art becoming manifest in them as they take on and express the principles of the system.
There wasn’t that much in common with Hung Gar, and I had no idea how to make this system work at first. It was only thru the hard testing in a real environment (police work) that allowd me to understand fully. I had already 14 yrs martial arts behind me when I started LYS’s Jook-Lum under the late Master Ho-Sing. His English was poor, so everything was a physical dialectic. It’s a cliche to go on about a persons skills, but he was amazing: now sadly lost to us.
I’ve published on that long journey in a two volume autobiography: ‘Martial Law: the memoirs of a Kung-Fu Cop’ Vols 1 & 2. Published by New Breed (2001).
Cheers,
Steve.
Jon:
You do know that you can study SPM in Sydney, don’t you? Henry Sue’s crowd have a school here that trains in Willoughby, on Tuesdays and Thursdays IIRC.
I visited them a couple of months ago, escorting a friend. I liked them: nice people, no showing off, lots of personal attention. I’m committed to a different school; if I couldn’t do that I’d probably train with these guys.
See:
starchaser & others
Just wondering,
Has your girlfriend seen you training or been around when this goes on?
–yes … she’s all ready completed her 1st semester junior yr in college pre-med studies … soon 2 b 17 yrs old … u know ? her opinion of kungfu is … right?
Does your mother and sisters embrace her as part of the family?
–they love her much more than me … i’m the only male child so they’re stuck with me … they r hoping she will save me … might work out that way
If so is she learning the style as well, or does she and her sister have any interest in kf at all.
–her sister is a valley girl wannabe j.a.p. … ditzzy 2 the gills … see above 4 other
–mr. steven t. richards–no 18 pt strike, som bo gin, 2 man sets & such in our hand … 1 empty hand set … 3 weapon sets … 1 chi kung set … many san sau … the other stuff was created outside the temple … 3 generations … straight from kwongsai jook lum temple 2 my hands … i’m 4th generation