I recently heard a story that Grandmaster Lam Sang(southern mantis) challenged Lam Sai Wing(hung gar) and won. The story goes that Lam Sang, in his prime, challenged Lam Sai Wing, who was an old man, and beat the hell out of him.
Years later, Lam Sang regretted doing this. Anyone know more?
did lam sang give a date and place this happened?
The stories that i’ve heard about Lum sang’s mantis / fighting that it wasn’t up to much, what i’ve been told by the Hakka elders in the Hakka arts. i know this is going cause a up roar in the Jook lum in the States but when are these guys goinigng to realise that their version is nothing more than a mish mash of stuff with mantis bits thrown in for good measure. If you want learn real mantis ,try going back to S.E. Asia, U.k. & Down Under.
Cheers
lemme get this straight, the same lam sang who beat up bruce lee also beat up lam sai wing?
wow, is it possible that lam sang is some kinda immortal?
Dibs on the ears!
Yes Grand Master Lam Sang was all those things and more. When he was alive no one questioned his ability (mainland, Hong Kong, USA) Lam Sifu’s Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai is different and unique from the rest because he was the inheritor Jong Fa and only one to learn the Dim Mak 108 and Hei gung. Let them all talk because hands will tell and there are some who have the lineage art that are not known.
sheesh
Is it ever possible for any of you to read the origional post before answering? That might be a good idea. I was inquiring about the ONE fight between the two masters…not whether he beat up Bruce Lee or whether he’s immortal.
Heard the story.
I have heard that story in the past. Lam Sang was supposed to be around 18 or 19 years old and Lam Sai Wing was in his 70s. This was reported in an old issue of inside kung fu magazine. Lam Sang was said to feel bad about this fight. It is said that he felt as though he took advantage of an old man. Lam Sai Wing supposed to have stop accepting challenges after this incident. If this story is true, it shows that Lam Sai Wing, dispite his advanced age was willing to take on anyone. Props goes to Lam Sai Wing.
Peace
Jerry Battle.
Speaking of fighting anyone at an advanced age Grand Master Lam Sang was challenged by a Choy Lay Fut master half his age (Lam Sifu was in his 70’s). The argument ended up outside the Hip Sing in Chinatown. The CLF Master attacked Lam Sifu who countered with a soft touch on the CLF Masters chest. The CLF Master ended up convulsing on the floor. They called for an ambulance and Lam Sifu never spoke about it again. The story was told by on by eye witnesses.
Originally posted by Sam
Speaking of fighting anyone at an advanced age Grand Master Lam Sang was challenged by a Choy Lay Fut master half his age (Lam Sifu was in his 70’s). The argument ended up outside the Hip Sing in Chinatown. The CLF Master attacked Lam Sifu who countered with a soft touch on the CLF Masters chest. The CLF Master ended up convulsing on the floor. They called for an ambulance and Lam Sifu never spoke about it again. The story was told by on by eye witnesses.
Wow, sounds cool. Any of his students or students of any of subsequent generations been able to publically replicate this amazing ability? Mike
There is only one that I know of and he won’t even speak of it.
I think I know who Sam is referring to
They say that Gin Foon Mark’s hands are better than Lam’s.
Ho Dunn was better than Mark Foon and neither of them were even close to Grand Master Lam Sang in his prime or old.
Sam
I’ve heard differently. I heard that NYC Chinatown will never see a better fighter than Gin Foon Mark…that Gin Foon Mark’s shock power surpassed even the old man’s.
HO Dun Chin passed away…so we even if his hand was better than Mark’s…it’s not anymore.
Oh jeez…
Too bad Lam Sang’s inheritor who can down people with a single soft touch, won’t replicate it against Wandelei Silva, Rickson Gracie, Sakuraba…
Those fools who beat each other using external strength would finally realize how powerful the "real " chinese martial arts are.
Not to mention the finacial gains along with having hundreds of students knocking on your door. He could finally raise the system of southern mantis to #1 in the world, where it belongs.
It’s ashame he would rather sit behind “closed doors” in some basement in chinatown NYC, sipping tea, on the threshold of poverty, telling tales of yester years to a handful of students who listen without question,…
Just to keep the system’s “integrity” true.
Skill
The hand of Lum Sang is not for everyone. There was a reason Lam took in small groups. Jook Lum cannot be taught “en-masse” like Karate. Even if one who posesses high skill wants to transmit it to another who is willing, there is a high percentage that much will be lost. Each generation has less and less time to train, Lam was with Lee Siem 24/7 for period of years, Mark and his classmates worked long hours in the coffee shop and practiced every night for a few hours. As Lam got older, he spent less time with his students. Lam’s kungfu was his own, based on the “traditional” Jook Lum. Each of those who understand the priciples of the system, principles which go against human nature and typical reations, can adapt and use them in cooperation with their body type will have a different hand from each other. If Lam was five foot ten and 200 pounds, he would not have the same skill and ability. Those “who would be Lam” are practicing in vain as everyone is different, each unique, yet all can be part of the same pai by principle. Gin Foon Mark was quick (and still is), Chin Ho Dun was soft like water but hit like a mule. The Chins, Norman and Milton were a “Mutt & Jeff” couple, Norman being six foot and Milton five foot four, yet they were partners under Ho Dun. They understood that they could not be like Lam, they had to take what was given to them and then make the gungfu thier own.
Re: Skill
Originally posted by jo
[B]The hand of Lum Sang is not for everyone. There was a reason Lam took in small groups. Jook Lum cannot be taught “en-masse” like Karate. Even if one who posesses high skill wants to transmit it to another who is willing, there is a high percentage that much will be lost. Each generation has less and less time to train…blah blah blah…
So you’re saying that only a priviledged few will ever accomplish a high level of training in Jook Lum? Wouldn’t it be nice if these secretive, select few would step forward and demonstrate their incredibly complex and difficult to fully learn system before its lost.
Sounds like baloney. But hey, all systems have thier larger than life past generation worship themes.
Mike
Fact or fiction??
Squillion dollar bounty on one touch death, no-touch knock out, laser beams of chi from the third eye…
But, beyond the fact or fiction of the great masters and their legendary exploits, what is more notable is the arguments poised in disbelief:
“Why not just show everybody the secret?”
“It must be lies because if they had something special, they would have sold it for lots of MONEY.”
“If its so good, they should have taught everybody so the art would not be lost.”
"If its so good, how come they won’t fight ________ . (Joe Lewis, Muhammed Ali, Rickson Gracie, Steve Irwin, Buzz Lightyear…fill in the blank based upon age and super hero of choice…).
The fact that commercial concerns are beyond some individuals is incomprehensible; the desire to remain out of the spotlight a mental illness?
Just as a student may search a lifetime for a true Master, likewise a Master may teach a lifetime in search on that one worthy disciple. Show who??
Fundamental to many martial arts is the concept of selectivity, even secrecy. You don’t want your enemy to know your hand, you want to know his.
Teach a thug, watch him thug about for a couple of years you you’ll understand the saying “the sins of the student fall upon the shoulders of the Master.”
I know of 3 of my Si-Suk in Guangzhou who have closed their hands because their students have done ill with the art and they can’t bear the guilt. They believe the time for the skill has passed, and the hand should likewise.
I realise in this modern society, its a fee for service mentality. Martial arts are sport in the modern era. It wasn’t always that way, and in the not to distant past. People lived the life of a martial artist, full time, in a feudal society. Even today, some cling to the old traditions for their own reward.
There is more, and in that world the costs are unredeemable, as the rewards are beyond measure, and market value is a meaningless concept obscured instead by issues of honour, dedication, devotion and morality.
There was a time when Sifu never owed his students, the students only ever owed Sifu. Like a Son or daughter owes their Father.
So, doubt the Masters if you will, search within your own study for the truth or falsehood of their alleged extraordinary ability. Be skeptical, but don’t think that fame and a few taels of silver are the only measure of mastery or even that mastery in itself is a reward.
There is a saying, “The only thing you know about those who claim to be God’s chosen few is that they most assuredly are not.”
How many of you guys have ever spoken with a black ops professional, a counter insurgent, a sniper or other trained professional killer? Ask them to show you some of their secrets and see what you get.
Now THAT was a good post!
Excellent post Yum Cha, I agree with you on the points that you make.
Still though, its dammn annoying to hear the secretive tales of…
"Master X was supreme, unmatchable, and godlike… His student (s) is good; but his student (s) doesn’t posess the true skill or the knowledge of Supreme Master X…
You (any martial artist hungry for knowledge that is) can learn from Master X’s last closed door student. You can seek Master X’s student out and ask him with open rice hands to teach you, but your efforts will be in vain and hopeless. Your efforts will be in vain because, you will never be as good as Master X’s student for one, and therefore you will never, ever reach the same level as Master X, never, ever, ever. And, not only will you never reach either Master X’s level, or his student’s level, but you will also never be able to learn all of the (true hidden secrets) of Master X."
I mean, these guys were and are supposedly teachers. If I teach, and don’t produce a student that knows everything I do (in his own way of course), and a whole lot more, then I haven’t done my job as a teacher, at all, and then the art turns into a circus. Plus, the whole idea goes against reason totally.
If a human has reason, and in this case desire, he or she has total ability to learn from another human. Kung Fu people can get as mystic as they want, but in the end it comes back to the physical, scientific, ways of the human body. These rules are definite. They can be bent, not broken. The idea of mind of matter is one thing. But the idea of mind over reality is absurd. It’s dogmatic, and false.
It’s kinda like,
“CLC was the best. He was unsurpassable, undefeatable. CLC painstakingly taught Joe everything he knew (of course while Joe payed him hard earned money no less). Now Joe is good, but Joe can’t begin to compare to Undefeatable Martial God CLC. You can learn from Joe, but you will be wasting your time. You’ll never reach Joe’s level, and of course, you will never, ever reach CLC’s level. But that is ok though, you can still pay Joe, and dream of never reaching his level, or CLCs.”
Oh back on topic. What pressure point did Lum Sang hit? Did Lum Sang hit the Choy Lee Fat guy in the Liver 14 point? If he did (it could have been other points too of course), and he did so very precisely, and the Choy Lee Fat guy possibly wasn’t expecting it, or the shot was real clean, this could definetely cause the Choy Lee Fat guy to fall down and go into convulsions. Dim Mak equals pressure point…ha
TAO YIN