Yum Cha,
I registered on this forum simply to say, “bravo.”
PM me a mailing address if you would - a few months from now, I would like to send you a gift.
I also agree that those who prance about worshipping dead masters are pretty annoying. The martial arts world is full of egos being crushed under their own weight, and most of those who aren’t busy being so crushed are busy inflating those who are.
What’s the answer?
Death :eek:
Hey Tao Yin, what up from Queenstown NZ! 
It’s funny that the same people that are annoyed that the old masters are revered are the same ones who blindly worship Bruce Lee. Grand Master Lam Sang was revered by the Freemason and Hip Sing in NYC Chinatown. He was the real thing and one of the last of his kind.
Yum Cha-
Not exactly sure what your point is, but I have met a Special Forces operator that just came back from Afghanistan about a month or two ago.
He was quick to point out, even without me asking, it is all BS, you were in the service before (meaning me). They put on pants one leg at a time, they are human, they have yet to defy gravity, they are scared when outnumbered…it is only the movies that makes them larger than life.
But then again he was talking to me and not “mr john doe front porch” whom he has to perpetuate an image to.
jo-
For what BS reason kung fu cannot be taught “en mass”?
That is just an excuse for having no students because your spending most of your time talking about how deadly your skills are and not having the balls to go out and show it.
Ask yourself what is the purpose of being a inheritor of the system?
Is it to pick that one worthy student to teach everything to? Well, if that is your method and it, as you say is dying off with each generation then it is obviously a sucky method to transmit. And he is doing a disservice to your style and to the whole purpose of being a teacher.
Where was Lam and his soft touching students in the 70’s when the Thai boxers went to HK and embarrassed the sh!t out of kungfu and the chinese?
sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism.
Where was Lam sang and his soft touching students in the 70’s when Oyama’s? karate guys went to HK and did the same thing as the Thai boxers?
sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism.
Even Cheung Lai Chun, Lam sai Wing, Jow Lung or is it Jow Biu? fought challenge matches out in public. Much like the Gracies of today.
Re: Re: Skill
Originally posted by SiuHung
[B]
So you’re saying that only a priviledged few will ever accomplish a high level of training in Jook Lum? Wouldn’t it be nice if these secretive, select few would step forward and demonstrate their incredibly complex and difficult to fully learn system before its lost.
Sounds like baloney. But hey, all systems have thier larger than life past generation worship themes.
Mike [/B]
Do you dispute that in today’s society there is less time to train than in the past? Do you train five days a week for at least four hours a day after working a twelve hour workday like Mark Foon and his group did? And don’t forget Mark was already a high level man of White Crane with a load of experience in Hung Gar before he took up Jook Lum. In fact, Lam did not teach anyone who did not have any MA experience! Those are facts, not fiction or “worship”.
Mike, are you a teacher? Can you put ALL your skills into another person? Have you tried?
Jook Lum will not die today or tomorow. It WILL diminish, like most of the “old school” systems, as the methods of training are forgotten or not kept up to par as the time for training lessens with each generation. The real secret of Jook Lum is in the basics of the 3 and 18. But non-Hakka want the flash and splash of fancy moves, spinning backfists and high kicks. They are deluded by glitter and ignorant to the fact the most basic tenet of Jook Lum is balance. And balance comes from hard work on the basics. And in todays world, nobody wants to practice the basics. Americans want to fly before they can walk.
The Masters of Jook Lum are not supermen, but they have the ability to coordinate body/mind/spirit in a way that fundamentally goes against “natural reactions” and that is what gives them the edge. When most would pull, they push. When most would retreat, they advance. If you every saw high-level Jook Lum it would look like…nothing special at all. 
Thats because they put countless hours into the BASICS. And as we all know the basics are “for beginners”…hehehe! 
BS? TIT SA
TIT- "For what BS reason kung fu cannot be taught “en mass”? "
I did not say kung fu. I said jook Lum,
Let me put it to you in Western terms.
There are many schools where you can learn to be a “race car driver”, but how many of these guys gets to drive NASCAR? At some point the superior student has to be “taken in” by an experienced professional and taught one-on-one, groomed and nurtured in the nuances of the sport. There are THOUSANDS of “race car drivers” but only fourty three suit up each Sunday to race NASCAR NEXTEL cup.
In Eastern terms, the Hakka arts are close-range combat systems which depend of “feeling”, “borrowing” and “redirecting” the power of one’s advisary. This has to be taught one-on-one. Its NOT about the forms, or breaking inanimate objects.
TIT- “That is just an excuse for having no students because your spending most of your time talking about how deadly your skills are and not having the balls to go out and show it.”
Ummmmm…just who, exactly, has “no students”???
How many students do you have?
TIT- "Ask yourself what is the purpose of being a inheritor of the system? "
When did I ever mention the bullhockey of a single inheritor?
TIT- “Is it to pick that one worthy student to teach everything to? Well, if that is your method and it, as you say is dying off with each generation then it is obviously a sucky method to transmit. And he is doing a disservice to your style and to the whole purpose of being a teacher.”
AGAIN! When did I ever mention the bullhockey of a single inheritor?
TIT- “Where was Lam and his soft touching students in the 70’s when the Thai boxers went to HK and embarrassed the sh!t out of kungfu and the chinese? sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism.” Where was Lam sang and his soft touching students in the 70’s when Oyama’s? karate guys went to HK and did the same thing as the Thai boxers?"
Lam was here in NYC. Did anyone ever say Lam was responsible for the entire gung-fu community in Hong Kong? And where did I ever say Lam was a “soft touch” guy? He was small and could hit like a much bigger man. His softness was manifest in the sophistication of his hand, his hands were hard to feel…until he hit you.
I will tell you this, NOBODY ever went to Lee Kok Leung’s Jook Lum School in Sam Shui Po or Yip Shui’s Chow Gar School in Mong Kok and kicked their a$$es.
TIT- “Even Cheung Lai Chun, Lam sai Wing, Jow Lung or is it Jow Biu? fought challenge matches out in public. Much like the Gracies of today.”
Lam had more than his share of fights in the streets of Chinatown, not in arenas with rules.
Your lack of even the most basic knowledge of the things you natter on about, compounded with your interjection of irrelevant statements shows what level you are on.
The level of ignorance.
Re: Re: Re: Skill
Originally posted by jo
[B]
1)Do you dispute that in today’s society there is less time to train than in the past?
2)Mike, are you a teacher? Can you put ALL your skills into another person? Have you tried?
3)Jook Lum will not die today or tomorow. It WILL diminish, like most of the “old school” systems, as the methods of training are forgotten or not kept up to par as the time for training lessens with each generation.
4)But non-Hakka want the flash and splash of fancy moves, spinning backfists and high kicks. They are deluded by glitter and ignorant to the fact the most basic tenet of Jook Lum is balance.
5)And balance comes from hard work on the basics. And in todays world, nobody wants to practice the basics. Americans want to fly before they can walk.
6)The Masters of Jook Lum are not supermen, but they have the ability to coordinate body/mind/spirit in a way that fundamentally goes against “natural reactions” and that is what gives them the edge. When most would pull, they push. [/B]
Anyone can train as much as they want to. It’s the individual. Are you saying that in the past people didn’t have jobs and families?
I am a teacher. I can and do teach everything I know to the best of my ability. No B.s., no silly superpower expectations, no silly costumes, and everything is hands on. My students benefit from this approach, but ultimately, as I’ve told them, it is their own effort that will produce thier desired results.
Sad. It doesn’t have to. Poor outlook.
B.S.!!! Non-hakka want flash? Deluded by glitter? Are you smoking crack? Where did you get that bit of misinformation?
Not everyone is like that. But to some extent I agree with you here. Commercialism has had its effects on many a fighting system.
More stylistic hero worhsip. Any fighting system…my bias being for CMA, can produce a great fighter. But it is the individual more so than even the teacher who will determine just how good of a fighter they become… But to suggest that Jook Lum has some “edge” over other systems is to dive into the kind of style-centric garbage that promotes silly internet forum debates over who’s better than who. Quite simply go to any school and you will here the same “our style has blah blah advantages over others…”. Are you saying that Jook Lum is that much better than other systems? If you are, I’m sure that there are plenty of CMA practitoners out there that would be glad to debate that with you, not to mention the MMA crowd.
Mike
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the nods, I’m humbled.
Tao Yin
Of course you make a good point. People talk sh1t in so many arenas, its no surprise that the same is true in Martial Arts, traditional, modern, whatever. One of the great lessons I learned from my journey is self-reliance, the ability to trust myself and to rely on myself to make decisions. I have found that within every mystical legend is often one tiny grain of truth, beneath the exaggeration, beneath the super-natural allegations. Finding that, and what it means to me is something that didn’t come from story telling but from training, and making my own physical investigations. Mind you, not replicating these things in fact, but simply gaining a physical or intellectual understanding for the basis of these claims, and coming to understand where the legendary skills, or the exaggeration came from, and why the stories formed around them. Mind you, only as far as my own art is concerned, naturally.
I think the lesson is well stated on the Pak Mei alter, “Sifu can teach you the Tiger and Leopard, but only the immortals can teach you the true essence of Pak Mei Kung Fu.” Understanding the immortals is a personal journey as any Hakka art practitioner comes to understand.
So, in a nutshell, It is my belief that Sifu does not produce the student - a road map is not the same as a destination. It is not water poured from one cup to another, with every spill lost forever in the transmission.
Just a guy,
I think you answered your own question. Wouldn’t you agree?
Tit Sa,
You helped me make my point. Thanks. My experience is these modern day “masters” of death and destruction find no romance in its pursuit, and are simply human beings who on occasion do extraordinary things, and sometimes pay for it from their hearts and minds a heavy toll that only they can understand. When good men confront evil, from within or without, it is an expensive proposition.
Originally posted by Sam
It’s funny that the same people that are annoyed that the old masters are revered are the same ones who blindly worship Bruce Lee.
Sometimes true, sometimes not. There are plenty of people in our tradition who have earned respect, but that is all. To my knowledge, neither Lee nor Lam sought “worship,” and it would be a disservice to either of them to adopt that attitude.
Tit Sa - I do not understand why you have such venom towards Lam? Is it because he failed in his Confucian “duty” to travel to HK to beat people up? It may be hard to believe, but in some martial traditions, contests, “challenge matches”, and other ego-stroking activities are avoided (as well as harming others for no good reason). The art is pursued for self-defense skills, and for personal rewards such as better health and spiritual development. This does not mean that stylists in those traditions do not have skills - they may train very hard and very pragmatically.
On the relative merits of styles versus individuals who train in those styles, consider that techniques and styles in dynastic China constituted what we now think of as military technology. Why were some schools so incredibly secretive? It is because a highly adept fighter can learn new techniques and principles by viewing another’s gung fu on as little as a single occasion. So, to keep the technological edge, many schools were secretive and did not display their skills, regardless of whether they were Buddhists sworn to only use their gung fu in self-defense or not.
I am not prepared to say that SPM is a “better” style than any other, for it truly does depend upon the individual. But compare, if you will, Hung Gar and Tae Kwon Do. Take two stylists of equal advancement in their respective styles and have them fight. Repeat with stylists at all skill levels across both arts. Again, I wouldn’t say that Hung Gar is a “better” style than TKD, but having done something very much like this, I will say that the results support the view that some styles contain advances in martial science that other styles lack.
Re:
Thank you Yum Cha,Jo,Just a guy and Sam for the good posts
and the common sense they also contain concerning lam and his
spm pai.
jo-
Your NASCAR anology proves my point. A gifted person should get the special attention to excel. This can be said about ANYTHING, karate, jiujitsu, bakmei, NASCAR, hung ga…
So why all the secrecy? Borrowing, feel, etc. these aren’t “alien” terms to any style of martial arts. karatekas, judokas, BJJ, Thai boxers, NASCAR racers, accomplish the same level of skill in their arts without all the “special rules fanfare”.
And somehow Jook Lum, in particular Lam Sang’s jook Lum is special?
I don’t have any students because I don’t teach. I spend my time learning from people who has something to show, and show everything out in the open, who don’t spend their time telling unverifiable stories about how his teacher beat up so and so, with the secret dim mak touch.
You call me ignorant, but when was the last time Lam Sang and his special style of Jook Lum SPM produced any fighter that had more than just stories to tell about their sifu?
Just a Guy-
I have no venom against Lam Sang or SPM at all! Believe me when I say this. In fact I think SPM is a great style and i heard Lam Sang was a very accomplished kungfu sifu too.
But the problem is when people start spinning stories about, death touches, beating so and so the famous sifu, how their style is special and can only be learned in this fashion…etc. You get my point.
As far as you say “other ego -stroking activities are avoided”, well, then why even tell stories about how you beat up so and so. Except to stroke your own ego.
Why tell stories about how good your sifu and grandmaster is or was? Except to stroke your own ego.
And when public challege matches came (ie Gracies, Oyama..)why weren’t they there? Was it to save their own ego? because you have everything to gain by winning and you can even add another story to your style.
I know traditional CMA, I learned it too, and still consider myself a CMAtist above everything, and when people deem stories of the past are more relevant than events in the present I think their is a problem.
Ego/pride is the problem and if you can’t let go of your ego you will never improve.
While JMA and the relative newcomer Brazilian MA, are improving their arts by doing, “traditional” CMA are busy talking.
Why all the secretiveness? The most obvious reason would be to keep it from people with out the proper mind set. My Sifu has told me many time’s that, “If you are going to draw a gun and put a bullet in it you had best be prepared for the consequences. Martial arts taught without morality will only produce streetfighter’s.” Another reason is to insure that the art will be past down to someone who respect’s it. To many system’s are “mixed’ with other styles creating a chop suey martial arts. You yourself, Tit Sa, admit that you dont have any student’s, you spend your time " learning from people who have something to show, and show everything out in the open”. So what you learn you keep to yourself, isn’t that also a form of secretiveness? Lum’s gung fu is special to all that have learned any of it, just as whatever gung fu/martial art you’ve been lucky to study is special to you. This hold’s true of practitioner’s in any system. And the storie’s that upset you so much are also found in all style’s, even your own teachers have their opinion’s about other style’s and their teacher’s, more storie’s. Unfourtunatly there are many people like you who have the mentality that because you, in your own little space and limited view, have never “saw” or “heard” of someone they couldn’t possably be a true fighter. All system’s produce many good fighter’s that you and I have never heard off, but that dosn’t change the fact that they exist. They may not have a “title” or “championship” to their name that you approve of, but it dosn’t make them any less real. Yes, Lum has produced some scary talent, but because you haven’t heard of them I suppose they could’t exist? Henry Poo Yee comes to mind as a excellent fighter, he’s almost 65 and his hand is still strong. His student, Paul Huber would be happy to have a little exchange with you to compare the realitive worth of the system, that way you could draw your own conclusion’s based on real experiance. He will be in Huston for his Sifu’s birthday March 5th and 6th, If your in the area drop in. If your really interested in increasing your knowledge and out look it would be a good opertunity for you and him.
I keep it to myself because i don’t teach. It doesn’t mean if someone ask me I won’t show it. Or that I will perpetuate the myth of secret techniques.
Yes, all teachers tell stories, and most of the time i don’t really listen to them, unless I deem it worthy of attention. Especially when they talk about how grandmaster beat up the so and so famous kungfu guy or famous karate…
I never said SPM is not a worthy system, in fact I said words to the contrary. Go back and look at my post.
(Sighs)
Ching Chung Cao states:
“Why all the secretiveness? The most obvious reason would be to keep it from people with out the proper mind set. My Sifu has told me many time’s that, “If you are going to draw a gun and put a bullet in it you had best be prepared for the consequences. Martial arts taught without morality will only produce streetfighter’s.””
No offense mate, but BOOOOO!!!
This assumption is one of the most false, CLICHE’, untruthful, ideas in the entire Martial Art community. Come on! Who goes out and gets in fight to the death streetfights every day? Even so called street fighters value their own lives somewhat… I mean, if you teach a person, from day one, the philosophy of “hand to hand, heart to heart, if you don’t attack I won’t start” …and the person you teach this doesn’t get it and turns into some super thug streetfighter…then you should have chosen someone more worthy to teach. Now lets look at this from the other angle. If a streetfighter comes to learn from you, and you can’t teach him how to chill the fark out and be respectful, you’re a “no good” teacher.
As a teacher, if you can’t at least get across the philosophy of honor to someone, you shouldn’t be teaching…
Anyways, my rant. Everything in the MA community is turning into one big mess of cliche’ assumptions.
for crying out loud
Let’s get back to Lam Sang and his challenge to Lam Sai Wing. I want to know if there’s any truth to this and where I could find information about it.
No offense taken"Mate", apparently you take thing’s a little to literally. I wasn’t talking about shooting people with a gun. The gun is an analogy for the human fist, the “bullet” is the phoenix eye. You can substitute any hand/foot formation you like. I never said anything about fight to the death street fight’s, you injected that into it. Even the best of teacher’s have had student’s that turned bad on them, in the “old” days the Sifu would take back the gung fu from the student by destroying the muscle/tendon structure and in rare case’s by killing them. The ability to get one’s point across isn’t a reflection on a teacher’s skill or lack of. Just think back to your time spent in the public school system and the many teacher’s you had. I’m pretty sure that many were unable to reach you or inspire you. Dosn’t mean they were bad teacher’s, they may have reached many other student’s. Bottom line, we are all responsible for our own behavior. Don’t blame it on poor Mom and Pop or the school system or your race, the system and any of a dozen more copouts. You know the deference between right and wrong, be a man/women and take responsibility for your actions.
And thats my rant, Mate"
Mate,
What is taking things too literally in regards to an internet chat forum? In this case, I read your post, understood your analogy, or lack there of, and analytically replied. I didn’t mention anything about your analogy. I didn’t mention anything about loaded weapons, guns shots, or phoenix eyes. I aruged against your implied written statement.
Ching Chung Cao wrote the following:
“Even the best of teacher’s have had student’s that turned bad on them, in the “old” days the Sifu would take back the gung fu from the student by destroying the muscle/tendon structure and in rare case’s by killing them.”
I mean, read this back to yourself, from a literary standpoint…
Let us not get bogged down in semantics however. If you will go back and re-read my previous post or the post before that, from a realistic standpoint, you will notice that every point I make is concretely straight forward.
bye mate,
TAO
Siu Hung
Yes they can, and…No.
Thats great to hear.
Sad, but its the truth IMHO.
The Paul Mitchell “Martial Arts Championships”…'nuff said.
Now that IS sad.
I never said Jook Lum is BETTER than other systems. Just different.
Re:secrecy
It is not so much secrecy as quality control!
One of the main reasons that Jook lum hasn’t flourished, from what I’ve been told, is for a few reasons;
one, it was not taught to non-Hakka-until recently
two, it was taught in fives-meaning that the Sifu would take on five disciples, this way two pairs of two working out and one with Sifu in rotation, so that everyone can feel his hands-Jook lum is taught by feeling, one on one, not en masse. Each of the five would in turn, take on five and down the line. This would work in a pyramid fashion-in theory, but only if each continues to teach, desires to teach, CAN teach, lives long enough to teach, etc, etc.
It wasn’t until Mark Foon, and later Henry Poo Yee brought it out in the open that people even knew of its existance. Actually, Henry Poo Yee really made it mainstream-and caught alot of flak for it, both good and bad. My personal opinion is that it was a good thing because Jook lum might have died out. Of course like any art being taught publicly-there is the problem of quality control, and degeneration of the system due to too many unqualified teachers.
I also must take issue with the comment about Sifus Norman and Milton Chin being referred to as Mutt and Jeff. I think that was a disrespectful comment. I’m not sure if that was the intent, but they both have earned well deserved respect in the Chinese Martial Community (Mo-Lum) I believe their ‘nicknames’ were in fact “Thunder and Lightning” -two monikers that from what I’ve heard, were also well deserved.
Will there ever be another Lam Sang, Wong Fei-Hung, Tung Hai-Chuan? Who knows?
If you teach a thousand students, after ten years or so you might find a few that will stay with you long enough to transmit true knowledge to. Instead of the ones that show up when they feel like it, or practice sporadically, or quit after a few years, look for the ones that have been steadfast in their training year after year. Through the hard times as well as the easy times.They are the ones. Everyone else will simply pay the rent. Of course they will derive tremendous benefit from training. both physically, and mentally. But only the few will be in that ‘inner circle’ who will go the extra mile,push themselves. Look at Tiger Shullman-they claim that they have had five of their guys place in NHB tournaments. They have over 30 schools with at least 200 students in each, so out of 6,000 students, couldn’t you find five hard-core, die-hards? It’s a numbers thing.