Add to this the fact that many SPM teachers won’t teach SPM until the prospective student is already extremely accomplished in another style, and it’s easy to see why there aren’t many competent SPM people out there.
However, Jow Gar (Hakka SPM) is a bit different from Jook Lum in that Jook Lum wasn’t so restricted to Hakka. But Jook Lum was a temple tradition, and so restricted in other ways. Jow/Chow/Chu Gar is the Hakka variant, and they have recently opened their doors, just as some Jook Lum stylists have.
Originally posted by TenTigers I also must take issue with the comment about Sifus Norman and Milton Chin being referred to as Mutt and Jeff. I think that was a disrespectful comment.
I know you look up to Norman.
But then a lot of people do…because he is tall.
Originally posted by jo
[B]4) The Paul Mitchell “Martial Arts Championships”…'nuff said.
wtf…So you see this kind of crap and then say non-hakka like glitter and flash?
How much Hung ga, jow Ga, Choy Li Fut, Mok Ga, Fujian White Crane, etc… do you see in a competiton like that? None. Why, because that’s a martial performance competition and there is no place there for a real fighting system. So please, do not have the impertinence to lump non-Hakka Southern style practitioners with that lot! I mean really, do you live in a jook Lum plastic bubble or something?
Mike
Anyone can train as much as they want to. It’s the individual. Are you saying that in the past people didn’t have jobs and families?[/b]
It’s not so much an issue of time as it is how time is spent. They didn’t have all of the distractions that we had, and also had a different attitude. However, time may have been a factor, considering the power of money these days. I usually train 2-3 hours a day, at least. I bet there were several people back in the day who put in more time than that.
6) More stylistic hero worhsip. Any fighting system…my bias being for CMA, can produce a great fighter. But it is the individual more so than even the teacher who will determine just how good of a fighter they become… But to suggest that Jook Lum has some “edge” over other systems is to dive into the kind of style-centric garbage that promotes silly internet forum debates over who’s better than who. Quite simply go to any school and you will here the same “our style has blah blah advantages over others…”. Are you saying that Jook Lum is that much better than other systems? If you are, I’m sure that there are plenty of CMA practitoners out there that would be glad to debate that with you, not to mention the MMA crowd.
Mike
It’s not necessarily style-centric. There are arts that produce competent fighters than others. It’s more of an issue of training methods though, not the style itself…
yep, I know who Mutt and Jeff were. I also know who Rube Goldberg was, so you can guess that I’m older than dirt! LOL
There are teachers out there who teach for the love of their art, the fact that they also make a dollar from it seems to upset only those who want a free ride or a hand out. They somehow feel that they are ‘entitled’, -to what, I have no idea. To these people, Many of these teachers might seem to charge alot for what may seem like a little. Some might ‘string you along’ with all sorts of ‘doors’ and levels. Did you know that these very same teachers that you so despise have also taken in very serious students-those with the desire and commitment to learn the entire art…These few students are those they have taken under their wing, so to speak. These students aren’t all paying special fees, some not at all. Perhaps these Sifus are looking for something…‘special’ and have found it in these few. Perhaps the few haven’t come along yet. Perhaps they never will. Sifus’ lament, I suppose. You can idealistically say that one should teach everything and just put it all out there. But, there are certain things in Gung-Fu that can only be taught on a very personal one to one basis, with a huge commitment. (we’re not talking about money, we’re talking about Gung-Fu-time, effort, hard work, commitment) When you invest this much on a student and the student ends up being disloyal, or selfish, or greedy, or whathaveyou, you take a little more time and care in choosing your next student.
This is not an attack or a defense of anyone in particular, because it applies to many people, and many circumstances. I can not speak for anyone other than myself. I am only speaking from my own personal experience, both as a teacher, and as a student.
oh BTW-Jo - I did understand what you meant-it’s just that the term Mutt and Jeff carries a derrogatory meaning in today’s slang. I know you did not mean it as such, and my post wasn’t directed towards you, but to those people who come out of the woodwork every once in awhile and try to sling mud. Not that I am the “Defender of the Old Guard” or anything, but you know as well as I, that these people sit on their haunches, waiting like vultures to attack, and tear down some pretty respected Sifus, because they themselves have felt personally slighted by them-usually due to their own greed, and seek to attack at every opportunity.
You call me ignorant, but when was the last time Lam Sang and his special style of Jook Lum SPM produced any fighter that had more than just stories to tell about their sifu?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Your generalized question may involve sampling error.
I have met an awesome CMAist for whom Lam Sang is a sigung.
Secrecy is not the best term. Apprenticeship is better.
For learning a top quality art or craft- proper apprenticeship is an invaluable tool.
Joy Chaudhuri
But hundreds of other styles produce top notch fighters without all the secrecy myth and “hooyaa” about can’t teach en-mass, must be learned by feel…etc.
Originally posted by Tit Sa
[B]Of course proper apprenticeship is required.
But hundreds of other styles produce top notch fighters without all the secrecy myth and “hooyaa” about can’t teach en-mass, must be learned by feel…etc. [/B]
You are 100% correct.
There are countless ways to fight, and thousands of schools one can attend if one wants to become a fighter.
My thanks to all who are looking after Sifu’s name.
For those that are not accustomed, Sifu’s Jook Lum Pai is a different style and method of CMA. Do not judge what you do not know likewise you will not be judged. Members of Sifu’s pai are taught and trained differently than how other styles are taught. No one here is saying which is the better, just different. If it is because we call it ‘different’ that causes folks grief, then ask yourself this question: why are you fustrated because it is deemed different?
Answer: you have not learned other than the physical aspects of CMA.
I think Poo Yee is a bad a$$–not to mention a really cool guy. And I have an honest question for anyone who might know; just curious with no agenda.
Why does his Southern Mantis look so different from other SPM here and abroad? I mean, at least to my ignorant eyes, it doesn’t look a little different the way body styles or small lineage branches can color things.
To me it looks significantly different. Anyone know?
If you saw enough mantis and other Hakka hands, you’d see that they all share features and the differences make sense as interpretations and developments along particular paths followed by the advanced practitioners.
One method that works in a particular system may not be comprehensible in another because it is not possible to transplant single methods without adjusting the rest of the methods.
So long as it’s cohesive and integrated, what’s the problem?
This is about Lam Sang’s fight with Lam Sai Wing. This is not a debate over whose mantis hand was/is better. Does anyone else but me see this young guy challenging the old guy as a problem? I don’t want to hear any stories about “super” old men that can beat anyone because…in most cases a young man will beat a really old man.
David Chan Bong did something similar when he opened up his school RIGHT NEXT TO Frank Yee’s school. Why would he do something like that?
For what it’s worth, Lam Sang, later in his life said that he regretted the incident. Since both are dead it makes little sense to speculate on what did or didn’t happen. As for young men challenging old men, it happens all the time. The strong prey on the weak, always have and proably always will. I wouldn’t worry so much about past injustice, just look around, there is plenty happening in the world now.
Originally posted by Tit Sa So why all the secrecy? Borrowing, feel, etc. these aren’t “alien” terms to any style of martial arts. karatekas, judokas, BJJ, Thai boxers, NASCAR racers, accomplish the same level of skill in their arts without all the “special rules fanfare”.
true.
[b]But the problem is when people start spinning stories about, death touches, beating so and so the famous sifu, how their style is special and can only be learned in this fashion…etc. You get my point.
As far as you say “other ego -stroking activities are avoided”, well, then why even tell stories about how you beat up so and so. Except to stroke your own ego.
Why tell stories about how good your sifu and grandmaster is or was? Except to stroke your own ego.[/b]
It’s not really ego stroking, IMO, more of piggy back riding. It’s a means of giving a school validity. (I’m not saying that’s what going on here, so no flames, anyone) Having an undefeated GM is not a reflection of you at all, because you don’t necessarily have the skill that he had.
I know traditional CMA, I learned it too, and still consider myself a CMAtist above everything, and when people deem stories of the past are more relevant than events in the present I think their is a problem.
It seems typical of some Americans to equate being good at a fighting system to wanting to prove it for all the world to see. For those that cannot understand why a particular master didn’t go out for a public match at every opportunity, get a life! Believe it or not some people don’t have such a shallow attitude to martial arts and are not in it for the money and fame.
Real martial arts are not enough for some people and so they have to create or try to stir up their own little soap opera between the famous fighters of our time. For some, if you are more concerned about other peoples fighting ability, go watch a film or something instead of practising martial arts.
IMHO any country that has a Martial Arts Businessman or Martial Arts Millionaire magazine in circulation, then that country really should be banned from fighting arts!
Only true practioners have skills that no one knows about until the day their hands are tested and everyone is shocked. The true practioner watches and waits. All the rest like to impress with their knowledge and look like fools the day a third rate amatuer knocks them on their ass. I’ve seen this time and again. As far as I can see, real JL practioners let their teachings take root and advance simultaneously in mind, body, and spirit. They’re not flashy and don’t show off their skill. They are true people. The only need to fight is when the time arises, don’t go around waving your banner or you will be challenged time and again. As far as the ultimate fighting is concerned, these people don’t seem to be real intellectuals. Where will they be in the future if they still have one. Do they think that their fight mongering fans will always be there to support them. Nothing new, just an extreme form of adult cartoons with fans who support Jerry Springer TV. Hope they have good HMO’s.
