Ya know guys, I don’t do SPM, so I may be way off the mark here. but I always consider an art where everyone does basically the same thing but every school is a bit different a good thing. It indicates a living tradition to me. I get kinda skeptical when I see everyone doing something the exact same way.
Hello Water Dragon,
You make a very valid point about a living tradition. Those that would say that there is only one (usually their) way to do things have the ‘problem’ of explaining the manifest diversity in lineages, forms, practice etc.
If their ‘explanation’ is to say that there is only one way (their way) and one Pai (their Pai) then that is a recipie for a strife born of stupidity.
I survived 13 years of front line Police work in part thru martial arts, but also in part through accepting diversity in culture/sub-culture and more broadly, humanity.
It is the easy option to slagg everyone else off - particularly if you are anonymous.
likieu,
If Hakka (gross genralisation) look down on internet forums, and you profess from your posts to be at the heart of things SPM, what are you doing posting?
My position as stated above many times and on other threads is that in order to mature people need to learn to communicate freely and openly.
BTW, if you wish I can introduce you to elder genartion Hakka Masters that don’t do SBG, some teach chongs (I was put thru that, but my Chines brother was taught none). They have no problem with SBG, it just isn’t in their teaching. Maybe you could explain to them that they aren’t authentic, or do not know their culture.
Alternatievly, you might just try to learn constructively from difference.
Mind Set
Good over view presentation Joy. True to your academic, TCMA lineage, and real world experience as always.
A solid historical perspective is useful to a degree in trying to understand what Water Dragon has termed Hakka secrecy.
An additional consideration that might prove helpful in explaining the situation revolves around differences in culture based mindset.
Specifically, the Eastern mind processes information according to a different set of rules than those held by many/most Western people and vice versa. This isn’t meant as judgmental as both ways, and many other ways as well, are all equally valid.
In simple and broad terms the Western mind processes in a primarily linear, Aristotelian, fashion while the Eastern mental operations are more circular. It is not a matter of two people who possess different mindsets seeing or experiencing an event and eventually coming to the same conclusion(s) via a different path. It is a matter of difference in perception ranging from reception of initial stimulus to final processed conclusion or understanding.
A somewhat common occurrence among Westerner’s who have had a long and reasonably open relationship with someone who is “pure blood” Chinese is an example of this. Sometimes in the midst of having a conversation the realization sets in that although they are both using words with an agreed upon meaning the messages being conveyed and the final understanding on the part of both parties are at total disconnect.
The disconnect arises from how the words are understood in context versus how they were meant to be understood by intention. Both context and intention are defined, shaped, or heavily influenced by cultural factors. A simple hand gesture in one part of the world will be warmly received and in another part of the world the same hand gesture will get you killed.
There are numerous words that do not translate cleanly, or cannot be translated, from English to Chinese or vice versa. Given that language is but symbolic representation the crux of the problem is clearly seen to not be raw experiential in nature. The total spectrum of stimulus perceivable by the senses is constant throughout the physical world.
The inability to translate into language problem arises from differences in mental conceptual frameworks or organizational structures that facilitate converting sensory input into something meaningful.
IME, the “secrecy” hurdle was overcome by openly conveying what’s really in my heart, e.g., the willingness to learn, an appreciation of the culture’s values, an honest workman ethic, personal integrity, sustained commitment, sustained good effort, etc.
IMO, those who attempt to manipulate, exploit, use, or covet are always discovered and shut out. Take a look at someone with a dozen or so Sifu that he/she has allegedly studied under and generally you will find a perfect example of this ruinous attitude.
They are allowed in to whatever degree and over some amount of time discovered to be of bad character. Secrecy did not keep them out as their own defective nature was to blame for their downfall. From one purely traditional point of view Joy’s online moniker “Yuan Fen” is what did them in.
The high level exchanges between recognized, legitimate Masters, which is often times characterized as “study” as a sign of humility, is something much different than the “Sifu Hopper” noted above.
All in all there may not be a real secrecy issue. It may well be just a profound and pronounced difference in understanding across a wide range of life. IMO and IME if I want to learn something from another culture I do things their way straight across the board and at no time attempt to take short cuts or circumvent their protocols. In taking such an approach I have found my experiences to be uniformly satisfying and rewarding beyond my wildest dreams. GM Lee has been very open and good to this old man. For that, I owe my Si-Hing Steve Richards a huge debt of gratitude.
Water Dragon
>. . . I always consider an art where everyone does basically the same thing but every school is a bit different a good thing. It indicates a living tradition to me. I get kinda skeptical when I see everyone doing something the exact same way.
Well stated and right on point Water Dragon. It actually goes a bit deeper than that as art, by definition, is alive and speaks to the individual, across the many generations, and across many cultures.
Craft is “cookie cutter” based with no tolerance for individual expression. Craft is also of very limited value and holds the tools of choice for those without much talent or skill.
The problem with the Troll, who is the false prophet and deserves no name as he has no face, is that he/she must perpetuate the myth of having “secret squirrel” information that validates him/her. He/she probably teaches a few equally delusional people and no doubt they have super secret handshakes, magic decoder rings, and plastic club membership cards complete with embossed seal and holographic overlay.
No doubt in my mind, the Troll cannot name a single Sifu that recognizes him as being his To-dai or having any real skill. Just a collector that has bits and pieces but no whole.
So, to overcome this defect in an attempt to gain legitimacy the Troll recites a bunch of commonly known points, alleges access to many mysterious doors, and speaks in mumbo jumbo frequently found in cults.
I have been in this thing we call TCMA for many years and have found a general “live and let live” attitude pretty much around the world. There are always going to be mental defective types running around claiming an exclusive on this or that. My SOP for such idiotic clowns is to offer to cross hands and if they refuse I just ignore them. Debate is good but I’ll have nothing to do with cowards.
Tit for Tat
The martial craft is what you receive from your teacher’s transmission. If he has no concept of teaching then you probably will receive very little of what he received.
Martial art is what you become with your teacher’s craft. If you are all about your craft and not your teachers’ then by now all future generations will be far removed from the original.
Just a few generations of being “all about my own craft” and you will find yourself so far removed from the original teaching that you wont be able to recognize the original. There are some examples of this today in the USA and elsewhere.
JF both you and Steven claim to have a long list of styles I believe like you said you had one or more Chuk Lam teachers, hungka etc. and Steven list several styles under his belt. Aren’t you both then Sifu Hoppers?
JF, I’ve given up on you naming your false prophet.
In history, we can see that many of the most popular (not necessarily SPM) kungfu masters sought out a long list of teachers and styles. Try reading the biographies including the Hakka Styles in the “Zhongguo Moshu Encylopedia” but you better get out your dictionary its in Chinese.
One reason Hakka arts are secretive is just as stated above. Those who beg for food receive it and then byte the hand that fed them. Another is that openess breeds evolution whether thats in the Hakka blood line by openess with other culture or Hakka art which loses its original flavor when “individualized” or mixed with other styles. In both ways it then becomes no longer Hakka.
There will be evolution of the art without the conscious effort to individualize. If everyone who learned from their teacher set out to change the art to suit themselves you wouldn’t be able to see the teacher or the root of the art in their practice. Yet even those who try to mimic the teacher still appear a bit different. Like writing this post with Helvetica or Roman Font - A, B, C is still abc no matter which typestyle used.
JF, Looking at your last post, I don’t have to condemn anyone or anything as you do. Everything is clear on its own. Are you a teacher? If so, I hope you are teaching your students better manners than you exhibit.
You call me names, fantacize about my lineage, accuse me of this and that without a clue of who I am. What does that make you besides the obvious? You don’t have to answer although I know you will - its a rhetorical question.
Thanks Troll
Why hello Troll, thanks for revealing who you are. None too bright are you? Re-read your last post a few times and maybe your addled brain can discover where you screwed up, yet again.
There’s something coming your way in the very near future and it’s coming from the Hakka Elders.
If there’s anything left of you once they’re done I’ll be issuing you an open challenge on multiple international forums so you can forget Gene bailing you out.
It’s going to be gong sau the real, authentic, traditional way. No video cameras, no witnesses, no attorneys after the fact, no prohibitions against lethal force and only one rule. Namely, survive or don’t.
Until such time I’m done with you. Have a real nice day.
Yikes
Glad im not on the wrong side of you JF Springer;)
Ill get some stuff on power generation in Hung Ga together for you guys to compare with your spm knowledge.
Please realise though im just a student and not really qualified to speak for the style, it will just be my own training.
Just give me a little time to get it together:)
As for likuei im really not sure what you hopped to accomplish from posting in the way you have.
Still there is one saving grace… people with half a brain can always see when someone is trying to start trouble. The only problem here being your picking on two people who are obviously very well respected. So its only done harm to your own reputation.
As to the comment on the teaching abilitys of either Steven Richards or JF Springer.
I would feel VERY lucky learn from either, they both clearly know there stuff exceptionly well and are not afraid to stick up for there art.
Before you go off on a tangent saying i somehow have something to gain from standing up for them, consider this…
I live in Australia, im not hakka and i already have a system[Hung Ga] im very happy in. I will most likely never have the pleasure of meeting either gentleman, I just know what is and is not rubbish when i hear it. Both have given excerlent insight into there art and both have an obvious working understanding of application and form. This is made clear in all of there posts.
Maybe your just jelous of someone elses abilitys to do what you can not?
Secrets and such
I kinda agree with you JF and kinda don’t. First off though, whatever the Hakka want to do with hteir stuff is cool. They created it, they developed it, they can give it (or not give it) to whoever they want.
What I don’t like is that secrecy breeds fraud. Especially in regards to new students. Luckily I’m at a point where I can watch someone move, feel them, and know if they have something real or not. I got that way because I found solid legitimate instruction, but it was dumb luck that got me there. I could very well have not stuck with my first real teacher and still be clueless as to real MA. There’s also really no way to tell who’s good or who’s not if you are a beginner. You know da.mn well what would happen if I asked a legit Chinese teacher to cross hands to see if he was legit. Even if I did come back after the beating, I’m pretty much disregarded at that point.
I agree with you on the culture and learning what you’re taught. But I also think giving the real stuff from the beginning will accomplish that. You WILL show your true heart before you hit a level where you can be considered dangerous. Besides, in today’s age, it’s cheaper and less time consuming to just get a gun and hit the firing range twice a week. Still, you can give 80 % without ever releasing the nasties of your art and still create a good fighter.
But like I said, the Chinese can do whatever they want. I sure as heII don’t amount to a hill of beans to them. I’m just venting 
Water Dragon
Well thought out response Water Dragon and I certainly don’t seek 100% agreement with anything say. I can just speak into my dictaphone and have my secretary play it back to me if that’s what I sought.
Whether a culturally unique art is shared beyond the confines of said culture is not something unique to Hakka. IME, I found the French to be the least generous, open and giving of people.
I understand, and to a certain extent agree with, your point regarding secrecy breeding frauds. Then again, taken to its logical conclusion there would be internationally recognized standards in place, and standardized certification requirements. Kind of difficult to validate art in this manner and it begs the question of whether or not it’s really possible to quantify and qualify any art form to such a degree.
Understood on the newbies being subject to predators. I have been blessed from jump street and in 37 years haven’t followed a fraud for a single day. Yuan fen, $hithouse luck, or by the grace of God I was spared that ordeal.
I beg to differ with you on the crossing hands with a prospective Sifu. IME, that’s the way it was done. Normally, the response was to put a senior disciple up in the teacher’s place. His school, his choice. The “test” was if I was going to place myself under his tutelage then he had to have something to teach. Since I’ve never trained or practiced MA for any reason other than real world combat that meant I had to be beaten. Painful, some fair degree of damage, but we all heal in time. It answered the questions I had as well as conveyed the message to Sifu that I was nothing but serious.
I continue this practice and offer any prospective student the same deal on first meeting. They are invited to wipe me out anyway they can. Since I will only accept a student that has appreciable time and skill in some form of MA they tend to accept my offer. Makes for a solid foundation with regard to the “teacher - student” arrangement and immediately lays to rest any doubts they may have with regard to whether or not JL SPM works.
As for giving the “real stuff” from the start I agree 100%. The real good ones tend to do this it’s just that it’s 100% real at a very neophyte level. At one time there was a common expression: “What’s Sifu going to do, revoke my hands?” as once things are taught they cannot be taken away. So, some degree of prolonged testing of character is in order.
IME, the twice a week on the range thing is off. Just for “filler” to give you some idea where I’m coming from on this, I’m a former member of ODA 735 & 726, A Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne), combat veteran, qualified and certified small arms expert in over a dozen small arms weapons systems, among other things. An ODA or Operational Detachment Alpha is what Hollywood calls an “A Team” if this helps. At any rate, skill with small arms is highly perishable and a couple of times a week on the range shooting holes in paper targets from a fixed distance
that are non-moving isn’t going to cut it. In the heat of the moment you’re just as likely to shoot yourself in the foot as put round on target. Even at that, with hand guns the standard is “double tap” or 2 consecutive rounds, center mass, put within the distance of a .50 cent piece from each other, in rapid succession. That generally insures the guy has been severely compromised.
I don’t amount to a hill of beans to the Chinese either. I’m just a gweilo who has acquired a certain level of skill in response to excellent instruction, dedicated training and a willingness to do the real deal down in the blood and the mud. I’m certain that if I took all my “I Love Me” stuff down to the local 7-11 I could get a cup of coffee. That is, as long as I had a $1.50 on me as well.
Tit for Tat
JF,
-
Who do you think I am?
-
Who is Gene?
-
Take some prozac man you are wigging out. You can huff and puff but I don’t scare.
-
Be careful what you ask for you just might get it.
Jon, Reputations are like the jealousy you speak of - what you have in your mind is unimportant to me. My post presents a standard veiw regarding SPM training - thats all. I’m not picking on tit for tat - although I may have commented on their posts even so in a much less offensive way than does JF. Personally, I don’t care what they teach as I’m not in the buying market. As JF says Caveat Emptor.
JF Springer
I started a shooting skills thread. Please join in. Thanks
Water Dragon
Thanks for the kind offer but I’m only on this forum at Steve’s request. As soon as he releases me from this obligation I’m out of here.
IMO, forums suck swamp water. Eats up a lot of time better used practicing and too d@mned many “tough guys” who are fearless outside of arms distance, Trolls.
However, I might be able to do something better for you if you have a genuine interest in close quarter hand gun combat skills.
Contact me off list at my profile listed E-mail address if you like and we’ll see if there’s something I can do for you.
JF Springer sez:IMO, forums suck swamp water. Eats up a lot of time better used practicing and too d@mned many “tough guys” who are fearless outside of arms distance, Trolls
TRUE!!!
likuei,
Going back to points raised by you earlier: you fundamentally misunderstand the Lee-Yin-Sing approach.
Firstly, just to reiterate, doi-chongs are included, but, not for everybody, and for varying amounts of time where they are taught.
Mor-Kiu skills are taught in preference, with a floating bridge and leaking hand skills.
Som-Bo-Gin does not exist in all SPM Pai, although three step formula and similar sets/parts of sets may be found.
Pressure testing is not as you describe it, but a recursive loop feedback approach, where the individual tests his/her understanding of principles, structures energy etc to their (personal) failure point, before reassessing themselves as well as the principles in question - in relation to seniors and elders. the process is positive and dynamic - being a continuous learning curve. It avoids the development of compliance based comfort zones and abstract practice.
Gin-Tan-Ging is the energetic dynamic of SPM, however, contrary to your point, there are both biomechanical and qualitative variations in its delivery - significant ones - with significant differences in end delivery of force. To bundle them all under one heading is misleading.
Dim Mak, chi-gung/hei gung are taught in LYS’s and Ho-Sing’s Pai right from the off and not withheld.
The determining factor is character - which it is then the responsibility of seniors and elders to assess and to nurture. That has its pressure testing, failure points and recursive loop develoment as well.
GM Lee-Lien is married to an Englishwoman, as was Ho-Sing and many others in LYS’s Pai. GM Lee’s blood son’s are half Hakka, half English. GM Lee has no time for racism.
For you to be able to justify your accusation of ‘Si-Fu’ hopping against me, you would need to know more than you do about me and my background. If you had said information then your cursory attempt at an insult would fall flat.
Please, get in touch privately with your personal details. When you can be ‘verified’ you can be formally invited to come to the UK and repeat your remarks insinutaing that Grandmaster Lee does not know his own culture - in person face to face.
Your remark to John F. Springer (numbered 4.) on your list is word perfect for a threat made to me in an e-mail not some days ago. indeed the person who sent that mail has an open invitation to call and repeat his insults - same as extended to you. it is interesting how your style of writing has evolved since your first post - be careful what you say - it might just reveal you;)
Now, if, which is perfectly possible, I have got you completely wrong, then you have my unreserved and sincere personal and public apology.
You might prove that to be the case by entering a proper debate with the results of benefit to all (including me). Along the way, you might also have the courtesy to answer the questions that I raised of you earlier.
Sincerely,
Steve.
Good’ay Steve Sihing and Jack,
There are certainly a lot of interesting points raised on this thread, I hope I can contribute in due course.
Jon, have you seen me before in the Easter Carnival Performance at Market City ???
Cheers,
Aussie John.
Bao Jong
In response to your post, yes the softer side of Chow Gar
Mantis, is given the term silk reeling power. I’ve only
recently been introduced to it, so my knowledge maybe
incorrect as I’ve yet to fully understand the principles involved.
I’m told its another level of training. Once you’ve been introduced
to the concepts, you incoporate rate it in to all your movements.
It seems to involve several parts. The first is body unity,
As a junior, when you strike you usually use the strinking limb
only. Silk reeling power aims to unify the whole body
behind the strike, rather like chen Tai Chi’s shock power.
In a similar manner the waist becomes the axis which drives
the body, it also acts in connecting the top half of the
body with your base.
The second aspect, is how you strike, movements are no
longer linear. You ‘drill’ each movement. Like a drill your
motion travels both forward and out/inward. The concept
is again like the spinning top, you deflect incoming movements.
Along with this, are the sensitivity drills. Which were you
try and relax and simply react to your partners movements.
I hope this helps, or at least helps to clarrify a few things.
Andrew
Aussie John
Greetings thank you for joining us in this discussion, I hope you might provide some insite into your own training in spm. There have been many questions asked. Still i can understand if your reluctant especialy given current circumstances.
In responce to your question to me no i didnt see you, i missed that im afraid 
I did however attend the festival in Burwood which you were so kind as to post the information for. I was there with my sifu and a few other students.
Hi Andrew,
Very informative post. I wonder if Aussie John as a Chow-Gar and Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum man might be able to compare the yin elements, leaking hand, floating bridge, use of waist and feet to generate power in LYS’s Jook-Lum with CG’s Silk-Reeling power?
I thought that it was interesting that you compared it to Chen’s Tai-Chi and Lee-Yin-Sing’s advanced energy is supposed to be similar - despite that fact being mocked out of ignorance by some lesser learned SPM individuals from another Pai.
Great that you helped out on that one, I’m learning much and am very obliged to you.
Hi Jon,
Thank you for you continued kind remarks. Lets hope that we can get back to your initial questions!
Aussie John,
Brilliant that you are on the thread, your very wide experience will help I’ve no doubt. I’ve some questions re Chow-Gar myself that hopefully will further my understanding.
Cheers Brother,
Steve.
Well Stated Andrew
Hello Andrew - Well stated and I particularly liked your part regarding the drilling motion.
The hand must go progressively yin in certain aspects if it is to be of any value to someone beyond the time I call “the gifts of youth” and what you described fits the spiraling energy model as I understand it.
The outgoing and inward retracting bridge’s spiral accounts for the opponent’s bridge when leaking. Your post also reveals a tactical consideration when employing this method. Specifically, it happens at a very close distance and leaks along the path of the opponent’s bridge. IME, it actually rides the opponent’s bridge. The distance is what I like to refer to as “standing in the opponent’s shadow” as I am literally inside his base of support or root. The total distance of strike is from finger tips touching, elbow down and in, shoulder folded-coiled, dip gwat held in reserve, distance.
I came to this about 20 years ago when reality testing my method. At that time my foe of choice was the average college football (American) defensive lineman or line backer with the arena typically being the local college or university jock pub. These guys were in the 6’2” to 6’6” range and weighed in between 225 – 260 pounds. Their football positions required them to have good hand fighting skills to keep opposing linemen from getting into their bodies and blocking them, as well as excellent balance to stay on their feet when hit with a leg whip or cut block. They also came pre-packaged with great strength, an appetite for pain and a willingness to kick a$$. The pub setting dictated close confines so it was the perfect setting for reality testing SPM, IMO.
It takes a fair number of years and a lot of practice to bring the mechanics together as quickly as they need to manifest in order to make this work. However, once accomplished it is virtually impossible to counter or effectively deal with.
I used a systemic and progressive training and practice protocol to develop this skill and if it is something that interests you I invite you to contact me off list for further discussion.
The mechanics are really of no value to someone not of the SPM Pai and I don’t want to contribute to the education of a certain no name, no lineage, no guts, Troll.
Thanks for your open, honest and informative post.
The Springer post:
I am not SPM period but the principles you mentioned that are understood in the developmental path are similar but not the same as in my style- most likely because of the proximate southern origins of both arts. The differences are in how rooting and mobility are achieved. Good post.