Southern Mantis - Why so secret?

Steve R:sez;As for the dialectic yes anything can be overly applied hence the need for demonstrable as well as dialectical reasoning. A physical dialectic along the lines of Hegel, gives both in a martial arts context.

Information theory is a useful model, and can link transcendent idealism (Plato’s notion of ‘form’) thru Aristotle to immanence - also a link to Jame’s ‘neutral monism’ as the ‘stuff’ that links the ideal and the material. Genetics as an analogy and a demonstrable example works well, and links too to General Systems Theory - another perspective on the organisation of information.

A frank opinion Steve: The above name dropping of folks with quite different epistemologies I suggest does not make “public” sense , though it may to you. It involves jumping from model to model and forcing it on incomplete information at least in net
conversations at least about kung fu..

Hello Yuan,

It’s about deep structure similarities between superficially different persectives - that are actually complementary if not isomorphic.

In plain English they sum up.

Point taken of course about the language/ideational presentation, but as you imply, we all bring our respective backgrounds to this metaphorical ‘table’ of debate on traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

That is one aspect of debate that I find very informative.

Steve.

mr. steven t. richards

I am known and acknowledged by the Chinese community as holding the art as taught and practiced by Ho-Sing.

–that covers it … thanx … r u known by another name? ok if u can’t say

GM Lee-Lien I met after Ho-Sing’s passing. He visited my school in company with Lee-Yin-Sing disciple Paul Lee (Lee-Po) Master Lee-Po watched my teachings and said, ‘You move just like Ho-Sing did’ and accepted my learning straight away.

–yipes!!! 1 hellified group 2 perform be4 … loads of pressure - & no bullsh*it pc to spare ur feelings if u su(k

then taught me as ‘Si-Bok’ until 2000 when he accepted me as his disciple & nominated co-successor with Andy-Liu-Kin-Ming, as well as his three sons.

–kewl beans … u r the only gweilo we’ve heard of getting there … maybe hope 4 others - maybe not … time will tell

I am extremely fortunate, indeed blessed to be so accepted. It is a great responsibilty.

–u said it bub … responsibility? more like cross 2 bear … many eyes on u 4 sure … some watch hoping u do well - others watch hoping u fail

My personal position is that GM Lee’s son’s should succeed fully and if I am still extant at the appropriate time, I will support them in this, as I have made known to Lee-Si-Mo, their Mother, and wife to Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

–true attitude … most would gloat & try 2 hold on … most have no idea ? it means 2 be lineage holder … justa puta big 'ol bullseye on yer chest thar pardna

It is appropriate for the art to be kept by a blood Hakka.

–true attitude also … it is hakka … but should not lock every1 else out … plenty of room 4 those that qualify … the reasons of old r no longer valid

I am honoured enough as it is and seek nothing more than I have achieved already in terms of personal ambition.

–can’t go no higher … u shot 4 the stars & hit 'em … even those very fortunate usually only land on the moon

There are Lee-Yin-Sing Pai in the USA. More recently tham these blood Hakka, a representative has been appointed for GM Lee, and also for Ho-Sing’s hand, who is not Hakka, but accepted fully nevertheless.

–here? where?

It is very dificult to describe in words.

–can’t really b formed in2 words … skill is action

However, GM Lee has the original hand as taught by his Father Lee-Yin-Sing. Ho-Sing’s is changed, … Others have changed the hand as the art has taken on their personality and character.

–yes!!! thas right!!! seeds remain constant … all else is personal preference

GM Lee’s hand is the ‘original’ from Lee-Yin-Sing. It is also more extensive in content.

–took that from ur last post … hakka hands - hakka weapons

Broadly, Ho-Sing’s hand is characterised by more emphasis on shoulder derived Tan-Ging, and a preference for a floating bridge and leaking hand.

–okey dokey … high eyebrow 4 sure … floating bridge fu(ks up most people … nothing 2 work against - with … leaking is plenty hell 2 … where ever they r - they get hit where they came from … lose-lose situation 4 the opponent 4 sure

–very good answers mr. steven t. richards … u have given me much … thanx … my place on this or any forum soon draws 2 a close … 1 - 2 more ?s … maybe - maybe not

Gingerfist,

I’m probably known by a whole list of unpleasant names in certain quarters. Sadly, if it’s true that a man may be judged by the quality of his enemies, then there isn’t much down in my favour;)

Yes, GM Lee-Lien teaches Hakka fist and weapons, but, his LYS is also more extensive: he is his Fathers son.

The floating bridge and leaking hand skills are GM Lee’s too. Ho-Sing emphasised them earlier in his teaching that perhaps GM Lee.

The first Roads build up the power chain, then progressively take on a ‘yin’ aspect with the floating bridge (with stable root) and leaking hand. Highest Roads are truly internal.

All is available without restriction except by character and determination - thru pressure testing.

Regards,

Steve.

mr. steven t. richards

I’m probably known by a whole list of unpleasant names in certain quarters. Sadly, if it’s true that a man may be judged by the quality of his enemies, then there isn’t much down in my favour

–yesireebob … most people who turn out as enemies r such becuz they suck shit … petty - comes 2 mind these days … trying 2 hide ? they don’t even know … poseurs … wannabes … $$$ grubbing whores … mental defective types power tripping on some bullshit they made up & came 2 believe … yet more proof the old reasons r no longer valid … merit not birthright is the correct way

Yes, GM Lee-Lien teaches Hakka fist and weapons, but, his LYS is also more extensive: he is his Fathers son.

–okey dokey … sure

The floating bridge and leaking hand skills are GM Lee’s too. Ho-Sing emphasised them earlier in his teaching that perhaps GM Lee.

–mmmm … we heard not so much thru the shoulder in lys hand as ? u said about ho-sing … could b misunderstanding by me … no matter … sharp angles 4 sure

The first Roads build up the power chain, then progressively take on a ‘yin’ aspect with the floating bridge (with stable root) and leaking hand. Highest Roads are truly internal.

–highest performance of hakka hand is always internal … might b true 4 other arts 2 … must go that way 4 progress 2 b made past the age of youth … in the past it was necessary 2 have killing hands well in2 advanced age … the hand was created & evolved 2 meet that need

All is available without restriction except by character and determination - thru pressure testing.

–u r a very honorable pai mr. steven t. richards … it has been my pleasure 2 have met u if only by electronic forum … i have ? i need & this is my last post … if u celebrate it - merry Christmas 2 u & ur family … good bye & good fortune always

Ginger Fist

“i have ? i need & this is my last post …”
Its a shame that your leaving the boards, some of us have really enjoyed your imput even if at times it was a little odd :wink:
I hope you will pop in from time to time anyway.
Say hello via email if you get a chance.
Best of luck in your training and your mission.

P.S i ‘think’ you gave me some advice a while ago, not dead sure it was you. If not disregard this… That advice turned out very well and i wanted to say thanks.
Merry Christmas
Jon

Ginger fist,

i’m curious about some things. First, it says in your posts that you’re 27 and you train 9 hours a day. Do you go to school or work? I’m curious as to how you manage that. Also, if you train that much why do you keep calling yourself a ‘lazy bag of…’? I think you also said in your posts that your mother/grandmother forced you to train, at least initially. Are they still forcing you or are you training voluntarily now? How do you feel about training- do you enjoy it? Do you resent your mother/grandmother for forcing you to train? It also seems from some of your posts that your grandmother physically abused you- how do you feel about her? Also, have you had much opportunity to test your art on the streets? Finally, you made some comments/comparisons between your art and hung gar. Would you care to elaborate on your opinion of hung gar? Also, have you been exposed to bagua, tai chi, hsing i, and if so, what is your opinion of these arts? thanks-

Suggestion

Steve, thanks for the information on Edward and I’m glad to read that the Iron Ox Pai is doing well. Perhaps if you ask him Edward would agree to join this forum, or in the alternative, designate a student to speak on behalf of the Iron Ox Pai.

It would be solid if Scott would join in as well. IMO, it’s always good to have someone from Mr. Gin Foon Mark’s family involved in discussions centering on SPM. No one can legitimately dispute the hands of Mark Foon.

Since I’m on this track I might contact Bruce to see if he has the time to join in. As the “door” for Mr. Henry Poo Yee Bruce is always a good guy to have in a discussion regarding SPM and his presence rounds out the Lum Sang Pai.

As you are on that side of the “big pond” how about contacting Paul Whitrod and asking him to join us?

I’m thinking it would be a good thing if we could all get together once or twice a year, eat too much good food, share some kung fu, and get to know each other better.

We are the next generation and the current lineage holders aren’t getting any younger. In the near future some, if not most, will be closing their hands to all save for a very select few, if even that.

Seems like a good time to forge some solid relationships in the spirit of mutual respect, support and cooperation. Such a thing would help facilitate a stable and orderly changing of the guard when the time comes. An informal association of sorts would also eliminate interference from any interloper as the primary collective Pai members would all ready know the real players in the various families.

Hello Jack,

Seems like a great idea to me.

Regards,

Steve.

Forum

Hello Steve:

I’ll E-mail Bruce and Scott. If you get a chance to contact Edward and Paul that should do it. Happy Holidays to you and your family.

My pleasure,

Cheers,

Steve.

andrew

Interesting you say that the second and third forms used to be one and was split up into two later on. As when we do form training sifu often changes the two forms so that maybe we start with Saam jin yui kui and then finish with Saam bo pai kui or reverse. Whether this is done in any of the more advanced forms i’m not sure he’s back in april so i will ask.

The forms are quite similar, so it doesn’t surprise me
that they are alternated. In my opnion, whats important
are the lessons or the theories the forms are trying to
teach rather than the actual form. Its interesting to
know this as it shows the chronology of the system.

Just as is interesting to note that alot of southern
systems, not just Hakka systems use the three step
format of Sam bo gin. Before I studied Hung gar I was
exposed to Pak mei. Which also uses the same ‘format’
as Sam bo gin, I use this term loosely, in the sense that
the step, shoot, retract format is followed. What is even
more interesting is the parrallels with Fujian White Crane
that Sam bo gin has. But at the moment, this is just
an interesting correlation.

Andrew

Hello Andrew,

Seasons Greetings.

Interesting point about the three step format. Some in Lam-Tong-Long (SPM) hold the three step formula to be esoteric and essential to the Mantis art. For some, the Som-Bo-Gin form is the foundation of the art - for others not at all necessary or even important.

My view having seen many versions of forms that carry the title Three Step Arrow, is that it is a generic name for a collection of forms that are different in most respects except for (a) their name, and (b) the three step formula.

My Masters Pai do not teach or practice a SBG set. However, the three step ‘section’ makes up part of Lee-Yin-Sing’s long form.
The ‘Fik-Sau’ set, as taught by late GM Yeung-Kum’s Pai from Wong-Yuk-Gong’s Jook-Lum has the three step formula, and is taught as the foundation set - there being no SBG in that Pai either.

The above links with the discussion between ourselves and Giles (pazmoot) about Fik-Sau earlier on this thread.

The roots run deep and diversify, but I’m sure that the principles and essence breeds true between all Pai, without prejudice.

Regards,

Steve.

SPM training.

Would anyone like to share some of there training in there respective spm pai?
Is there a lot of drilling? How about sparring?
Do you guys do much conditioning, if so what do you condition?
Is there Chi-gung in spm?
What are some of the weapons in your spm pai’s?

Just answer what you see fit and leave anything you dont feel confortable answering.
Trying to keep a flow of information up is all;)
Hope everyone had a great christmas:D
Jon

Som Bo Gin

Steve -

Your remarks concerning the formula similarities in the Fik-Sau and Som Bo Gin kuens are, of course, right on point. The first time I saw the Fik-Sau set the sequential progression and repeating pattern similarities were obvious. This was made even more clear upon running the Fik Sau set several hundred times over a couple of days.

IMO, the same can be said to a certain degree with regard to the Fan-Sau kuen of Ho-Sing. To me, rather than a point of contention and strife the similarities serve to confirm the richness of Jook Lum Tong Long as the seeds in the sets noted above are the same and present.

There is diversity in the expression of the seeds and this is one critical element that marks the Jook Lum Tong Long hands as a living art form, albeit an art form based on killing hands.

Those who profess to subscribe to the false notion that only one formulation is “right” or “best” should be ignored as they are either total idiots or attempting to manipulate people for financial gain.

Ultimately it all comes down to application in a real world combat environment.

Hello Jack,

Agreed on the three step formula. Even Lee-Yin-Sing’s Long 13 Roads form incorporates the three step format. In its basic (and openly public) first 4 Roads, Follwing its opening, Road one has a total of five steps, three forward, one back (to position of step two) and then a final fifth step forward to step position three, prior to the first turn.

Agreed too on the seeds of SPM and the diversification of those seeds with a common root.

As you say real world application is the key.

Jon,

Come back to you later on your questions. Many thanks.

Regards,

Steve.

Hello Jon,

Hopefully other Pai will reply as I can only speak for my own.

Two man ‘doi-chong’ and sensitivity ‘mor-kiu’ (feeling the bridge) exercies are employed but are considered for beginners only.

Drills become san-sau and application driven as problem solving and information-processing combat training - under pressure. In other words they become ‘live’ as opposed to staged drills.

There is the argument that staged repetitive drills are necessary for the establishment of skill. A agree, it is just a matter of when and for how long. After a while the learning curve flattens out at best from compliant partner training - and may even dip. Overly used, it can produce a seductive comfort zone - not at all relevant to reality.

In terms of sensitivity skills, Lee-Yin-Sing and Ho-Sing’s Pai’s develop a floating bridge and leaking hand structure, with detonating spring-shock power passing thru the ‘target’.

Fitness and speed training drills are used, as well as cognitive mapping, but, these are much more refined than the structurally slower ‘doi-chong’ regimens. Countdown punches in sets of 1,000 with wrist weights, timed for speed, target mapping combinations,
very aggressive bursts of ‘whole body ging’ and such like are routine

Re conditioning, this is used, through doi-chong’s, wooden dummies, bags of various kinds, iron bar rolling etc etc. Again, though this is basic and after a while becomes a ‘filler’ for not progressing to higher skills.

Re Sparring, this is from the get go and involves the building of a cognitive ‘battle computer’ that refines real-time reactions and information processing with the application of approprite technique. This may not sound ‘traditional’ but that is due to my use of language. It is Lee-Yin-Sing’s way to push students from the off.

Sparring has to have context. In our Pai it ranges from light bridge and skill development to gloved and padded up full contact.
My students are routinely taught to fight hard with head butts and biting techniques as they arise oportunistically. Real world fighters will appreciate the seamless expression of the animal and the cultivated in street combat.

Chi-Gung is routine in SPM. Some have it as separate sets, some integrate it fully into the form(s) as understanding develops. The same for the Dip-Gwut (rib power) in LYS it is never decontextualised, always fully intgrated so that it is part of the applied power chain. To train it outside of application is to train something separate - not actual use of the method. Sports science and biomechanics has shown that abstract skills do not transfer accross they need to be integrated to work well.
The same for chi-Gung, real understanding is integration and synthesis. The refined simplicity of this is real mastery.

Weapons: SPM Pai have different uses of these depending on lineage and teaching. Many draw from the pre-SPM Hakka arts.

In LYS, the eyebrow-pole, long-pole, Kwan-Do, dan-do sword, spear, Iron Ruler (Tid-Jek or 'sai) are the basic weapons. All are taught initially as short two man sets (weaponed doi-chongs) - then the principles are broken down and applied, before the skills are refined in longer single man weapon sets. eventually the empahsis on ‘set’ is dicarded as the skills become manifest in the physical form of the student.

In empty hand practice, this is a ‘communion’ with the essence of the art - and a spiritual experience.

Best Regards,

Steve.

Right on Point

Steve - A wonderfully lucid exposition concerning certain elements of skill acquisition in SPM. It is refreshing to read a pure content post.

If I may, I would like to expand on a couple of your points. Doi-chong training is kept to a minimum for a number of reasons firmly grounded in human kinesiology among other models.

Specifically, the loading of the lever as it changes angle is far too slow to have much in the way of real world skill transfer.

Additionally, because of the relative slow speed of movement the stabilizers of the attending joints are required to activate and operate at levels, both in intensity of contraction and duration, that in no way approximates real world requirements.

This unreal arrangement carries over into the antagonistic muscle groups as well.

Therefore, prolonged doi-chong training creates and reinforces neurological patterns that are impediments to skill acquisition from practice. The doi-chong patterns are an impediment in that at any juncture in the paths that interfaces, parallels, or crosses the practiced skill based movement path a node of dissonance exists.
There is a splitting of the desired pathway signal or a drop in amplitude of the signal traveling the desire pathway as some energy is expended over riding the doi-chong signal.

The above was well known to the ancients who expressed it in the nomenclature unique to their time, culture and art. For those of us not born to this heritage there are some western science models that prove useful for determining our practice and training schedules.

Your use of the “Battle Computer” model is also an excellent choice. We humans have the capacity to “auto” or “self-correct” across a broad spectrum if we have access to the right information. It is through repeated exposure to incoming forces that we are able to intelligently and correctly select out what works best for us as individuals.

This is a far cry from the eclectic and comports perfectly with the traditional.

There are many possible solutions within SPM to the problem(s) presented by any incoming force. At least in part, the solution sets define a given Pai.

Specifically, each SPM Pai have structures arranged in some order of priority or preference that correctly accounts for a given force. The order or priority speaks to the tactical wedded to the technical aspects of the system.

The task in part is to engage in repeated bouts of non-cooperative contact in order to discover what within the solution set best fits the individual’s genetic, emotional and psychological make-up. It is, after all, martial ART, and not martial CRAFT. IMO, freedom of creative self-expression is the standard for determining skill level, not a goal.

IMO, an additional element that needs to be present is the real threat, or potential, for injury. Setting the Psycho-Emotional stage is critical as the ability to successfully navigate through the often cited “adrenaline dump” is a learned behavior.

Contrary to some New Agers extinguishing or becoming desensitized to this response is not the right way to go about it. IMO, becoming “acclimatized” is the desired outcome as the tremendous surge of strength and power is an ally I always like to have with me in battle.

Finally, from a systemic perspective, in the absence of repeated exposure to real, or near real, world speed and distance of encounter there is no way for the human form to become accustomed to the often times chaotic and rapid movement patterns associated with real world conflict.

The “Battle Computer” model you employ has the same caveat as any computer system, namely, GIGO.

It is a shaping process and the sooner one is properly prepared to set foot on this path the better.

Hello Jack,

Brilliant stuff based on your very real world experience, sound education and solid traditional Chinese martial arts background.

Edifying for us all, not least for me personally, it gives room for further reflection and improvement in my training, teaching and development.

Very different from ‘attack and defence ocurring within the length of a cow lying down’ , but, the deep structure meaning between the metaphorical/traditional and the scientific is the same.

It works for me…

Many thanks,

Steve.