Southern Mantis - Why so secret?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
81

Hakka Mantis

SPM is not the only Hakka art.

Avoiding unnecessary partisan statements, an athropological study would likely show that all the Hakka arts have a common root and share much in structure, theory and ritual. The origin myths and culturally legitimised narratives that support claims to pre-eminence amongst the different traditions are interesting in their own right, but are not generally verifiable historically.
Analysis of form and structure are likely as in genetics, to show true relationships between Pai - including points of divergance evolution and adaptation.

Steve

82

JF Springer,

Hello John,

Good balanced points as ever, and great to have you here on the thread!

Gingerfist,

You let your information out purposefully I suspect;)

The following about sums up the view in my Pai (very abreviated)

Lee-Yin-Sing’s art came from the Kwangsi Temple via Monk Lee-Tik, a different line to that passed to Wong-Yuk-Gong from Cheung-Yiu-Cheung, and to Lam-Sang by Monk Lee-Siem.

Wong and Lam are the better known branches of ‘Kwangsi Jook-Lum’ Tong-Long.

Lee-Yin-Sing’s/Monk Lee-Tik’s art is a branch of Jook-Lum, and uses the name appropriately as it derives from that temple, but,
my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing (disciple of Lee-Yin-Sing) simply referred to it as ‘Lam-Pai Tong-Long’ (SPM) not Jook-Lum as such. My current Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son and direct inheritor to Lee-Yin-Sing and Monk Lee-Tik says it is Jook-Lum, but, also simply ‘Tong-Long Pai’.

This suggests to me that the arts roots may preceed the Temple itself and are likely to root themselves into the blood of the Hakka people.

‘What’s in a name?’ - an awful lot to some…

Cheers,

Steve.

83

mr. steven t. richards

Lee-Yin-Sing’s art came from the Kwangsi Temple via Monk Lee-Tik,

–this is right … lee tik was known as such 2 lys & several others … only lys carried 4ward 2 teach … the others took 4 personal cultivation … maybe a family member or 2 … not known 2 us

a different line to that passed to Wong-Yuk-Gong from Cheung-Yiu-Cheung,

–this is right 2 … the difference was not in the seeds … personal preference … not a different line until wyg took his 1st family

and to Lam-Sang by Monk Lee-Siem.

–very good mr. steven t. richards … u have said the names & start of spm histories 4 all 3 pai … who taught u this mr. steven t. richards? … lee-lien or some1 else? ok if u can’t share

Wong and Lam are the better known branches of ‘Kwangsi Jook-Lum’ Tong-Long.

–better known where mr. steven t. richards? better known 2 whom? not 2 hakka 4 sure … who then? if u mean under the name kwongsai jook lum tong long - maybe … but this name is modern so who gives a pigsh*it

Lee-Yin-Sing’s/Monk Lee-Tik’s art is a branch of Jook-Lum, and uses the name appropriately as it derives from that temple,

–wasn’t always that way mr. steven t. richards … lys had the temple refined hand 4 a long time it was called this

but, my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing (disciple of Lee-Yin-Sing) simply referred to it as ‘Lam-Pai Tong-Long’ (SPM)

–we do not know ho-sing … ? other names was he known as? ok if u can’t share

not Jook-Lum as such.

–temple id is modern

My current Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son and direct inheritor to Lee-Yin-Sing and Monk Lee-Tik says it is Jook-Lum, but, also simply ‘Tong-Long Pai’.

–yes … sometimes hakka tong long pai … can u say another name it has? i might b able 2 … have 2 ask mother 1st

This suggests to me that the arts roots may preceed the Temple itself and are likely to root themselves into the blood of the Hakka people.

–dam*nzilla mr. steven t. richards!!! … u have said it … the hand is very old … linked 2 the whole of hakka - blood is the right word … temple refined - didn’t create

84

Gingerfist,

I suspect that you know more than you let on, about my Pai, particularly its background and attitude.

GM Lee-Lien accepts all Hakka arts as one family. If the seeds are there then the Hakka spirit is there, it is not a question of style but of substance.

Cheers,

Steve.

85

Gingerfist,

Ho-Sing had another ‘name’ his actions in Kong-Sau necessitated it to change. Apparently the death of a Filipino fighter found floating in Hong-Kong harbour is linked by some to this.
I know personally of several challenge fights that Master Ho-Sing was involved in, including other Hakka and fighters from many varied arts and cultures. I witnessed him defeat my former Hung-Gar Si-Fu.

Ho-Sing also taught under the name; ‘Tao-Yin-Lee’.

Ho-Sing was a great fighter, but, by all accounts perhaps only number two as challenge fighter under Lee-Yin-Sing. The top fighter was William ‘Mad Police Dog’ Tsang of Belfast Northern Ireland (now sadly passed). His son still teaches, privately, no non-Hakka to my knowledge. William Tsang taught with GM Lee-Lien in New York USA in the late 1960’s.

The common link to all Hakka arts comes from GM lee-Lien. He teaches Hakka fist and weapons sets in addition to his Tong-Long.

He is pure blood 100% Hakka, his roots run very deep. He is Lee-Yin-Sing’s only blood son, although Lee-Yin-Sing adopted another Chinese as his son.

‘Adoption’ is common in Lee-Yin-Sing’s family, GM Lee has adopted and supported many Chinese children including the daughter of William Tsang.

The family is very strong, very tight knit. Open to friendly people, fierce and implacable if wronged.

True Hakka.

86

p*ussyzoot

The phoenix Eye fist is a northern fist

–dream on u pus*sy

So effectively Southern Praying Mantis is Northern Praying Mantis.

–buy more magazine$ … ur knowledge need$ more i$$ues … poseur

87

mr. steven t. richards

I suspect that you know more than you let on, about my Pai, particularly its background and attitude.

–not ? i know directly … knowledge of ur pai comes from much older sources … attitude … i like that word … care 2 share more?

GM Lee-Lien accepts all Hakka arts as one family.

–good 4 him … that’s the right way

If the seeds are there then the Hakka spirit is there, it is not a question of style but of substance.

–kewl stuff 2 say … right 2

88

.

89

pu*ssyzooted again

Insults like this, from someone who hides their true identity

–my id is stated in my profile … u have no name … u have no lineage … u r nobody so keep ur mouth shut … sissy boy

and gives constant and unhelpful abuse are not something that interest me.

–u have no name … u have no lineage … u r nobody so no 1 cares 'bout nothing & u r nothing

I will not reply to anymore of your comments.

–good … i don’t listen 2 nothing & u have no name … u have no lineage … u r nothing

I find them childish and cowardly.

–big brave words from some1 2 chickensh*it to say their name … big brave words from some1 2 much a coward 2 say their lineage
… add stupid & coward 2 u & that’s all u have … a stupid coward that is nothing … sissy boy

You have no respect for others.

–u have no name … u have no lineage … u r not others … u r nothing … can’t respect nothing … wannabe

90

mr. steven t. richards

Ho-Sing had another ‘name’ his actions in Kong-Sau necessitated it to change.

–okey dokey … not important 2 know … just curious

I witnessed him defeat my former Hung-Gar Si-Fu.

–kewl beans … good hung gar is tuff stuff … powerful … killing hands … = good spm wins … forms up faster … just a fact not a knock

Ho-Sing also taught under the name; ‘Tao-Yin-Lee’.

–drew a blank on that name 2

Ho-Sing was a great fighter, but, by all accounts perhaps only number two as challenge fighter under Lee-Yin-Sing.

–kewl beans 4 sure … we know lee yin sing … no pigshit person … some say a kind - gentle man … some say a harsh - honest man … all say he kicked much ass … never backed down - never lost … none say bad things

The top fighter was William ‘Mad Police Dog’ Tsang of Belfast Northern Ireland (now sadly passed).

–steeeeriiiiiike 3 & i’m out!!! these r not the names they must b known as by my people … doesn’t matter … many things went away when relocating … that’s good 2

His son still teaches, privately, no non-Hakka to my knowledge. William Tsang taught with GM Lee-Lien in New York USA in the late 1960’s.

–okey dokey … did they teach non-hakka … chinese or gweilo?

The common link to all Hakka arts comes from GM lee-Lien. He teaches Hakka fist and weapons sets in addition to his Tong-Long.

–dude - that’s so awesome!!! besides u r there any more gweilo inside the door? it’s ok if u can’t share

He is pure blood 100% Hakka, his roots run very deep. He is Lee-Yin-Sing’s only blood son,

–oh my … pity 4 him … being the only son blows goat balls … good 2 c he maintained the family standard … doesn’t always happen that way … yuan fen decides

‘Adoption’ is common in Lee-Yin-Sing’s family, GM Lee has adopted and supported many Chinese children including the daughter of William Tsang.

–adoption is common with our people … most think of legal thing … not the right way 2 look at it

The family is very strong, very tight knit. Open to friendly people, fierce and implacable if wronged.

–hakka 4 sure … no mercy 4 those that cross it … infinite compassion 4 those it embraces

True Hakka.

–batta bing!!! good indicator 4 sure

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.

92

Good points Giles,

This thread has a vein of good posts that are informative for us all
(I am certainly learning from them).

There are a variety of ways of making a point or drawing out information, most of them are helpful and respectful.

Lets keep the thread alive.

Regards Friend,

Steve.

93

Steve Richards said:My position regarding that title is that it is for the head of ‘Family’ of a particular lineage - a line of sucession - as appointed by the previous Grandmaster.

The head of a family designation is quite understandable. Appointment by a previous GM however can be problematic at times. In any case the GM designation then does not necessarily mean a specified level of knowledge… correct? Or even-ness in quality control- away from temple foundations?

Steve, I found your analogy of the role of a form in terms of a model from genetics meaningful and helpful and insightful. From a code to individuality.

I really am not personal though differences in positions can make it appear to be the case. This was true with your " method
"umbrella of “dialectics”. i am not unfamiliar with the term whether Platonic or Hegelian.I wont play credential games. But I think that at times- the simplest explanations and analysis per Occam’s razor can do. without dragging poor Hegel all over the place. And you know what Marxist dialectics spinning off from Hegel can do…So dialectics can be insightful but fraught with subjectivity as well.

I found your reference to the Hakka influence outside of SPM interesting. Many folks may not be aware of some of the old Hakka influences. the differences can disguise some of the old similarities. But the reclusive ness of the real Hakka remains.
And the reclusive ness is reflected in some southern masters in several arts. Part of the phenomenon you call “desiccation”. Folks who know bits and pieces creating lineages all over the place,

94

108kunt

Reread my first post you illiterate ****.

–did that stumpy … checked ur profile 2 … u have no name … no lineage … bummer 4 u 2 b nobody

I will be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, and I stated that.

–ur profile said it best … u know nothing & r nobody

My second post was directed at the questions Mr. Richards asked me, as your questions were irrelevent and barely comprehensible.

–urs read clear … clearly u know nothing - don’t even have a name … pity 4 u

As for the refrence to my notes, this was about the history of the art, not the fist itself.

–they r linked & can’t b broken … u cont. 2 prove u know nothing … plz stop … i’m convinced

Ask your grandmother for some spelling lessons.

–ask ur mommy 4 a name … here - let me help … i name u susie … okey dokey sissy boy?

To answer the only question that made sense, I studied under GM Henry “Poo” Yee

–we don’t know him … don’t know chickensh*it kung fu … got 2 b ur hand tho … thanx 4 the answers susie

95

yuan,

I think that as long as the dialectic is used to simplify rather than complicate, then Occam’s Razor need not cut so often (or well) :wink:

Wonderful tool, that one…

96

Hello Yuan,

Familial inheritance of a cultural system is in itself no gurantee of quality of transmission - just as you say.

Problems arising from that are easier to ‘hide’ in a large and widely spread art. In Hakka systems - being so tight knit between themselves - reputations are actually harder to maintain than to hide. (Wood and Tree’s analogy).

My Si-Fu is known as ‘The Man’ (Ah-Lien Gore/Lee-Lien Gore) for the Lee family by the Hakka community in the Uk - which extends beyond Tong-Long into Bak-Mei and Lung-Ying (Dragon) amongst others.

As for the dialectic yes anything can be overly applied hence the need for demonstrable as well as dialectical reasoning. A physical dialectic along the lines of Hegel, gives both in a martial arts context.

Information theory is a useful model, and can link transcendent idealism (Plato’s notion of ‘form’) thru Aristotle to immanence - also a link to Jame’s ‘neutral monism’ as the ‘stuff’ that links the ideal and the material. Genetics as an analogy and a demonstrable example works well, and links too to General Systems Theory - another perspective on the organisation of information.

Regards,

Steve.

97

Gingerfist,

Regarding William Tsang’s son, as I understand it no non Chinese at all. But, can’t be 100% certain. As for GM Lee-Lien, his own three son’s are half English. He has no racist position, but, he does things properly by attitude and dedication. As for Ho-Sing he had many non-Chinese in his last generation of students. Eddie Berry was the senior of them. He is private, doesn’t teach much, my very close friend and brother these 29 years now.

I am the best ‘known’ publicly re Ho-Sing’s hand. Others have it to varying degree’s. Eddie Berry in my opinion was the best natural fighter of all of them from Ho-Sing’s last generation. He also has a practical intelligence which allows the art to live within him. From the Chinese Master’s, my name is the most closely associated and recognised with Ho-Sing’s hand. I am also disciple to GM Lee himself.

I teach Ho-Sing’s art and also that of my Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

98

mr. steven t. richards

Regarding William Tsang’s son, as I understand it no non Chinese at all.

–old ways still in place but the old reasons r no longer valid … pity

As for GM Lee-Lien, his own three son’s are half English. He has no racist position, but, he does things properly by attitude and dedication.

–good 4 him … attitiude & dedication r good words … does merit thru hard work over time mean the same as attitude & dedication? is there a test for attitude - dedication?

As for Ho-Sing he had many non-Chinese in his last generation of students.

–that’s a good thing … r they still around? any in america?

I am the best ‘known’ publicly re Ho-Sing’s hand.

–is ? is known to the public different from ? is known in private? it’s ok if u can’t say

From the Chinese Master’s, my name is the most closely associated and recognised with Ho-Sing’s hand.

–mmmmm … might have answered the ? above … do u mean the chinese - hakka community recognized masters?

I am also disciple to GM Lee himself.

–be4 or after the passing of ho-sing?

I teach Ho-Sing’s art and also that of my Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

–can u say the differences between the 2 hands?

99

Gingerfist,

I am known and acknowledged by the Chinese community as holding the art as taught and practiced by Ho-Sing. This is so for the Hakka Tong-Long and also for non-Hakka, and non-Hakka style traditional Chinese Si-Fu in the Liverpool UK community - also now more widely spread. I have the support also of Eddie Berry Dai-Si-Hing under Ho-Sing’s last teachings, and, Si-Fu James Ho, son of Master Ho-Fong, brother of Master Ho-Sing, the last blood Hakka extant in Ho-Sing’s family.

GM Lee-Lien I met after Ho-Sing’s passing. He visited my school in company with Lee-Yin-Sing disciple Paul Lee (Lee-Po) Master Lee-Po watched my teachings and said, ‘You move just like Ho-Sing did’ and accepted my learning straight away. Grandmaster Lee noted the differences with his hand, but, acknowledged that it came from his Father’s teachings and then taught me as ‘Si-Bok’ until 2000 when he accepted me as his disciple & nominated co-successor with Andy-Liu-Kin-Ming, as well as his three sons.

I am extremely fortunate, indeed blessed to be so accepted. It is a great responsibilty.

My personal position is that GM Lee’s son’s should succeed fully and if I am still extant at the appropriate time, I will support them in this, as I have made known to Lee-Si-Mo, their Mother, and wife to Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

It is appropriate for the art to be kept by a blood Hakka. I am honoured enough as it is and seek nothing more than I have achieved already in terms of personal ambition.

There are Lee-Yin-Sing Pai in the USA. More recently tham these blood Hakka, a representative has been appointed for GM Lee, and also for Ho-Sing’s hand, who is not Hakka, but accepted fully nevertheless.

100

Gingerfist,

Re differences in hands:

It is very dificult to describe in words. However, GM Lee has the original hand as taught by his Father Lee-Yin-Sing. Ho-Sing’s is changed, but within parameters that are accepted norms within Lee-Yin-Sing’s Pai. Others have changed the hand as the art has taken on their personality and character.

GM Lee’s hand is the ‘original’ from Lee-Yin-Sing. It is also more extensive in content.

Broadly, Ho-Sing’s hand is characterised by more emphasis on shoulder derived Tan-Ging, and a preference for a floating bridge and leaking hand.