I think that as soon as more hot women get into MMA and sub-grappling, you will see many more TMA going there too.
"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.
Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."
You don’t fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can’t fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch’i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;789939]"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.
Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."
You don’t fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can’t fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch’i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.[/QUOTE]
I think that MA was reffering to the current crop of chi blasters, not you old, crusty and worn out chi blasters.
Truly, if we look at some of the past great ones you will see a variety of arts in their background, not just one.
I fight fine with gloves, either boxing or fingerless.
My ground game is not the best, mostly because i don’t spend a lot of time there and the reason for that is that there are not a lot of people that are into rolling in the place and way I train. Occasionally I get to look at it and work it though, but it’s not the focus.
I do in actuality what most would see as mma, but its from the cma I’ve been taught and have learned. Barring forms and sil lum basics and stuff, when it comes to banging, you have to have rules just so you can both go to work tomorrow without ridiculous facial injuries getting in the way of your client relationship management.
To think that every martial artist should be an mma fighter is petty. mma is what it is, but it ain’t what I gravitate towards personally. I don’t do sumo either or kendo or myriad other martial arts. This is because I prefer doing what I do, which is mixed in many respects but just not falling into the box that is ufc mma and the 32 rules etc etc.
is chinese man. I like it, it’s good. 
[QUOTE=TenTigers;789939]"Kung Fu folks should be embacing MMA.
Kung Fu players have been *****ing for years that boxing gloves in San Shou prevent CHin Na and fist formations."
You don’t fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA. People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can’t fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch’i strikes and dim-mak. Unfortunately, those are the ones with the loudest voices. The ones raised by Bruce Lee, Jacky Chan, David Carradine, while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons. But since it has become mainstream, the public gets what the public wants. And then they believe their own bullsh1t.\ Real TCMA has always had striking, grappling, throwing. On their feet and on the ground.
Kung-Fu has always embraced MMA. It is you who are just discovering it.[/QUOTE]
For some reason, all I hear is the “Peanuts” teacher…Wah Wha Wha Wah Wah Wah
[QUOTE=xcakid;789897]I guess some people went into kung fu thinking it was the end all be all of all martials arts. When it did not do what they wanted it to do, they got disillusioned and took something else. When that did not work, they took something else. Then MMA came out. Since its billed as all martial arts balled into one, they took that.
What most people do not understand is the other aspects of CMA. Internal development, herbal medicine including accupressure. Another problem is the lack of instruction. The art got diluted over time. I blame the western culture for that. Everyone wants it now. “I can’t beat a guy to pulp in a week, well what am I taking martial arts for then?” So I believe the old instructors diluted their teaching for ease of use. Which then got diluted further by inept instructors.
I believe it was golden arhat that posted a vid showing a class of people learning application and actually fighting with the straightsword. He seemed really suprised by it. That they did not only do forms. I was not. In every school, I have been to, we’ve had weapons sparring. We were taught how to block, strike and move with the weapon before we even learned the form. Once the form was learned, then we put on pad and sparred with it. NOt a knock against him, but I believe his dislike of KF and belief in MMA is that he’s had some lousy KF instructors that really did not know the art itself aside from punching and kicking. They probably learned that wrong too.
How do you think these student would feel after they see other arts out there that can pummel them.
http://www.wujidomartialarts.com/video/contact_sparring.html
This school is being billed as a kung fu school.
Let’s not forget KF is a rounded system. Both internal and external, both close in fighting and distance. Both weapon and open hand. Theories and phillosiphy as well as traditional medicine. The problem is there are instructors that do not teach ALL aspects of KF. They only teach a fraction of their own style. There are instructors that took out what they could not do or understand and discarded it as rubish. Further diluting the system.
The other side of the coin is people go into kung fu for the wrong reasons and get disillusioned. IF you want to bang heads kung fu is not for you in the early stage, not in any stage if you have a lousy instructor.[/QUOTE]
That clip reminds me of that brazilian dance people do!
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;789955]For some reason, all I hear is the “Peanuts” teacher…Wah Wha Wha Wah Wah Wah[/QUOTE]
That’s cause you have your views and you’re sticking to them. Which is fine, but each of us needs to understand that we are alone in our beliefs and views and that through community we will find people who share those views and the rest will be virtually disregarded. As you do, so does everyone else. We are all different and yet, we are all the same. 
[QUOTE=TenTigers;789939]
You don’t fukin get it, do you? TCMA has ALWAYS done MMA.
[/QUOTE]
In one sense, yes, real TCMA has four elements (kick, strike, throw and joint locking). Unlike some other traditions, CMA has always preached the intergration of striking with grappling
YET, we see much less of this in practice these days. There are tons of trips and throws in the hand forms, yet how often are they practiced? Are they even recognized? I know an instructor of a southern style who SWEARS there is no trips and throws in his system (when I showed him them in his own forms he sort of said “well, you COULD interpret that way” :rolleyes: )
YET, where is the fighting? Most CMA events have no form of full contact competition and those that do, the participation in regards to the forms if an amazing contradiction
[QUOTE=TenTigers;789939]
People who actually train real Kung-Fu are not the ones saying that they can’t fight with gloves, or threaten you with ch’i strikes and dim-mak.
[/QUOTE]
Teh dim mak and Chi blast idiots aside (though there are quite a few around don’t you think?), there are a lot of people who run to the “gloves excuse” STILL
[QUOTE=TenTigers;789939]
while others were trainng in small sweaty basements, and backroom Mo-Gwoons.
[/QUOTE]
A lot of the guys in the basements and backrooms can’t fight as well as they think they can. The fact they remain “hidden” and don’t test their skils compounds the problem… Until someone doing CMA the traditional way steps up and fights “looking like kung fu”, no scratch that, until a LOT , because a single person is an exception, until we see concrete proof that the old traditional road produces fighters, you have a HUGE QUESTION MARK STILL HANGING FROM THE CELING LIKE A 350 lb GORILLA SITTING ON THE LAWN CHAIR
A lot of the guys in the basements and backrooms can’t fight as well as they think they can. The fact they remain “hidden” and don’t test their skils compounds the problem… Until someone doing CMA the traditional way steps up and fights “looking like kung fu”, no scratch that, until a LOT , because a single person is an exception, until we see concrete proof that the old traditional road produces fighters, you have a HUGE QUESTION MARK STILL HANGING FROM THE CELING LIKE A 350 lb GORILLA SITTING ON THE LAWN CHAIR
This is a very valid point, though we must define fighters.
Then there is the competition issue, not all systems lend themselves to competition, ALTHOUGH, at this stage of MMA and Vale Tudo, that is less the case than in years past.
are we talking fighters as in MMA only?
what about chinese fighting circuits?
i guess since they dont grapple on the ground its not got every element…but they are still fighting. granted not as freely in a sense…but i wouldnt call san shou champions non fighters…they are definately fighters in their own right.
and there are a LOT of san shou fighters.
thats like saying the best Muay Thai fighter in thailand is not a real fighter because hes not MMA???
wrong.
also, from what i notice there is a growing MMA trend in china, your going to tell me that in China, the MMA guys have ZERO CMA elements involved???
i also call bs
[QUOTE=Lucas;789996]
are we talking fighters as in MMA only?
what about chinese fighting circuits?
i guess since they dont grapple on the ground its not got every element…but they are still fighting. granted not as freely in a sense…but i wouldnt call san shou champions non fighters…they are definately fighters in their own right.
and there are a LOT of san shou fighters.
[/QUOTE]
As someone who has promoted San Shou/San da since 1994 (and continues to do so), NO, there are not “a LOT of san shou fighters”
There are 7 or so programs producing San Da fighters now. And when one of those programs decided to show up at a San Da/san Shou event, they dominate.
This is why perhaps we see events that the major teams don’t attend seem to have some guys from the TCMA schools. They are willing to fight eachother, but not the trained fighters. I can think of five of these events off the top of my head.
Still, even at those events, they have like 400 people doign forms, and less than 30 doing san shou…
[QUOTE=Lucas;789996]
thats like saying the best Muay Thai fighter in thailand is not a real fighter because hes not MMA???
[/QUOTE]
Show me ONE post, just one, where anyone said Muay Thai people are nto fighters, STRAW MAN
[QUOTE=Lucas;789996]
i also call bs
[/QUOTE]
oh, definitely :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;789995]This is a very valid point, though we must define fighters.
Then there is the competition issue, not all systems lend themselves to competition, ALTHOUGH, at this stage of MMA and Vale Tudo, that is less the case than in years past.[/QUOTE]
there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn’t we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;789999]there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn’t we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000…[/QUOTE]
I can only speak for what I have seen and in the few Vale Tudo matches that I was involved in, in one way or another, in the mid and late 90’s, they were all pretty much anything goes, they were on Indian Land and the majority run by HA, and quite a bit of cash flowed around.
The fighters were mostly Thai boxers, tough guys, and what not, the majority sport combat systems, BUT there were 2 guys that I met that were Kung fu, a WC guy and a Hung Ga guy.
That was it.
It may will be the environment didn’t suit them.
how many san shou / san da bouts happen a year in china?
just curious.
as to the muay thai thing. i was getting the general feeling people are comparing fighters to only being in mma venues and all other venues just arent the cuts.
probably just my reading comprehension abilities.
i still find it funny how many people will jog down to the ol name calling though.
oh and i like the capitols for the emphasis. it helped me to get more offended by that wonderful name calling there.
just a question Ross, cause i know your in the know cause its your guys.
how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.
you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.
of your guys that start in san shou how many decide to cross into the MMA?
of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?
how many strictly MMA fighters do you have?
and how many fighters that compete in both venues?
edit:
also it seems NYC is like the hottest spot for san shou events, am i right?
why do you think this is so?
[QUOTE=Lucas;790021]
how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.
you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.
[/QUOTE]
In my gym, pretty much all my guys fight everything, by that I mean San Da, Muay Thai and MMA. American kickboxing is too limiting, as is amateur boxing (and amateur boxing is it’s own world and game). But San da, Muay Thai and MMA are related and intertwined.
Guys usually have a “strength”, some start off doing more KB (San da or Muay Thai) fights, others start off in MMA. All eventually can do all. Ian’s MMA debut is going to be a thing of beauty (or terror, depending upon your point of view)
All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA
San Da people fight…
[QUOTE=Lucas;790021]
of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?
[/QUOTE]
We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a “sell out” or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;790030]
All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA
[/QUOTE]
IMO this is a really good thing. Uniformity of a sort will help everyone get on the same page.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;790030]We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a “sell out” or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques[/QUOTE]
I surely wouldnt see that as “sell out” its just how it is. some people can bitch and whine all they want. fuck em! besideds records tell it all. anyone who calls you a ‘sell out’ should be able to produce a healthy fight record for their students…right?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;789845]yeah, lord forbid we ever question anything, we should blindly follow whatever our teachers tell us, even when it defies common logic and actual experience[/QUOTE]
i’m not talking about the mystical crap ross.
a good school should have all elements in it. stopping the shoot etc. what happens if you go to ground. take downs, throws etc.
90% of them are in it for the buck nowadays. this is my point. good kung fu schools are well rounded. most of them are just fake things that build up people’s ego’s by teaching the mystical family only secrets.
just because i do tcma forms doesn’t mean i have a tcma mind. I dont believe in any of that mystical crap and family only techniques. i could care less about it. moral traditions are good to have though.
i usually wont even bother with most of the “Chinese master’s” out there because 90% of them have no experience fighting out there at all. All they have is application and theory. too many times do i see schools doing same repetitive movements and others calling it good. all i can do is laugh. there are a couple Chinese masters who know what they are talking about. I’m not gonna mark out now.
I see kung fu as the original MMA. shaolin temple embraced all these fighting styles. My sifu did judo, tae kwan do in the past. do we incorporate judo throws, take downs and stuff into our curriculum? of course, why? because it works. take what works throw out what doesn’t. hasnt then always been what improving the styles over the decades has been about? maybe its because i think a lot of it is just kung fu, where people are too concerned with breaking things up ionto different styles. have i lost faith in kung fu? no. do i look down on other martial arts? no. i just think some are better for things then others. Do i like BJJ? not really, but it is really good for the ground work. do i like karate? hell no, but there are some really nasty karate fighters out there. do i like neo karate? no, but there are… ok that martial art is bullsh*t they should go do gymnastics instead, along with what the modern wushu forms are becoming.
my point is, too many people here seem to have lost faith and can’t wait to bash kung fu.
maybe its because there is so much bull**** out there. i wonder how many chinese guys learned some different styles (nothing to call them master or not the whole thing), came over here to a rural town and started out a style and have people believing it goes back many years. and people idolize this crap.