Rise/Sink/Open/Close

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Hendrik:

That was a super post - because you really clarify what the issues are on SEVERAL different recent threads - in terms of ENERGY (CHI) - in terms of different approaches to wing chun concerning FIGHTING DISTANCES - and possibly historical/lineage questions as well.

You wrote: “I’ve never been convinced that WCK using the 5 steps/array is the original from the red boat…because it doesn’t address the…issues…(of) deep penetration in one step (which red boat WCK did), which Chinese martial arts as early as the Ming Dynasty had to face…namely…one fights wrestlers too…”

You then raised the issue of whether or not the ability to cultivate internal energy from SLT exists or not…? You’re not sure.

Finally, you wrote in your follow-up post that “any primarily dealing with limb only art will not sustain grapplers…as the Gracie’s claim - it will go to the ground…”

Let me say this to you - I am convinced that the knowledge being taught in the first section of SLT goes way beyond introducing us to the centerline, the basic horse stance, the basic tan, wu, fuk hand positions, etc…

AND THE BIGGEST REASON WHY THIS SECTION IS DONE SO SLOWLY…

is to cultivate internal power (chi energy)…BOTH…let me repeat that…BOTH…for striking purposes (the primarily dealing with limb only aspect of WCK - at a certain STRIKING range)…

and ALSO for the MUCH CLOSER RANGE…wherein someone might be trying to grab you..chest-to-chest..and bring you down to the ground. But few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things.

BUT… I have yet to see any evidence that WCK actually (historically) developed a grappling system - WHICH INCLUDES AN EXTENSIVE ARRAY OF GROUND-GRAPPLING…

hence my interest on an earlier thread in asking certain questions to Andreas Hoffman.

At this point I am inclined to believe that Weng Chun is…somehow…someway…a sister-art to WCK…since the body spiral motions and chi sim (I believe it is) do seem related to wing chun principles…BUT AT A CLOSER DISTANCE…(ie.- standup grabbing, grappling, sweeping, locking, etc)…

It is my belief at the present time that the absence of ground-grappling…let me clarify that…EXTENSIVE ground grappling…is probably due to a belief on the part of the wing chun founders (and probably weng chun founders also)…

and again I am just speculating…

due to the belief that with the proper internal and external training - one could avoid being taken to the ground.

In other words - EVEN if thrown/swept (which would be unlikely if this second form of internal rooting and energy dispersal was mastered)…but even if it happened - one could recover and get back up…

But that other forms of grappling wherein one has been grabbed and TAKEN to the ground WITHOUT ANY BODILY SEPARATION…(and therefore the thrower has a much bigger opportunity to continue the grappling on the ground)…

That these things could be avoided due to the measures in place I’ve already discussed.

Now what the real historical/ lineage connections are that relate to all these issues…WHO KNOWS ?

And at this point - I don’t care !

I do know this much…it is important to be skillful in ALL fighting ranges…including grappling/wrestling on the ground.

42

If one investigate the concept of 5 array : BaiJong, intercept, sinking, pursue, and recovery. This 5 array stratergy is great dealing with limbs type of art.
If one look at the implementation of the 5 phases, one will see, it is great for limb distance counter/attact but not deep penetration. It is apparent that your experience does not match mine. I play more with the five phases/stages/ array’s and noticed that these five are also guided by energies that are able to “penetrate through body as one says.” Or I just don’t understand your postings.
If presume one has attained the internal energy handling capability as those ancestors in red boat. Not the primarily dealing with his limbs type of wck art.
So it is possible to penetrate deep, Yes, no, I am confused again. Sorry!
Check out the WCK book, by DR Leung Ting, page 27, there is a drawing on Leung Jan and Money Changer Wah. (Look at how deep the penetration or taking over other’s territory.)
Is this good Time/ space and energy control? is This your point?
In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, Chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42.
I see you and you see oil paintings, how do you think you go through the five, with penetration, Pow! thats gotta hurt, and hows the head? Again I must be confused with your antics. Sorry! Fortune for today- Words of wisdom taken from masters, can only be herd. Words of wisdom expressed through self can then truly be felt. LOL:rolleyes:

43

Phoenix,

You claim to be the Grand Master of a lineage that has no CK and no BJ. All you have is an extended SLT with alot of White Crane thrown in.

Yet you write these post like you actually know about Red Boat Wing Chun. Your posts are nothing more than layers upon layers of assumptions from books you’ve read and pictures you’ve analyzed searching for what you call evidence.

Reading your comments on the 5 arrays of combat is quite frankly a joke. You don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Your not even close.

How pompous of you to think that you possess all the knowledge of our three forms in you modified SLT. How pompouse of you to think that you have all the energies, and strategies of our Yi Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng in your first move.

You claim to be so eastern in spirituality and thought, yet you put alot of weight in the very western concept of learning through books and pictures. And then you go off talking crap about internal energy.

Real Experience is hands on training. It is not just reading a book, it’s not just attending one seminar, and it’s definitely not a self-interpretation of a kuen kuit that you noticed on a chalk board.

So until you get some real experience with what the vast majority consider real Wing Chun, qualifying your rantings with “imho” is not enough. To be more accurate, you should qualify you posts with “in my extremely naive view based soley on the books and pictures I’ve looked at, and my understanding of White Crane, I think…”

44

Ultimatewingchun
I was one lucky SOB to be able to experience this first hand. Chi Sim is in my eyes a sister to Wing, The both deal with the control of T/S/E as well as all ranges.

Let me say this to you - I am convinced that the knowledge being taught in the first section of SLT goes way beyond introducing us to the centerline, the basic horse stance, the basic tan, wu, fuk hand positions, etc…

Quito’s, The lim tau is not tecnical but spiritual as well. The development of self. I see this go behond one thread as well, thanks for making it short. Due to confusion of some I will just say this - some have drank most of the tea from thare cup, and others well they say that don’t drink tea.:smiley:

45

JamesHFYofAR:

Thanks for your response…I’m sure Weng Chun has much to offer - and yes - SLT is very deep.

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion…the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics.

46

originally posted by hendrik
In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42.

originally posted by hendrik
Make your own conclusion from what you see above.
To conclude anything without experience is foolish there is no conclusion to be made without experience there is no conclusion to be made without first feeling the energy of Wu Xing there is only room for speculation and misinterpretation. As a Grandmaster of white crane one would think you would know this basic aspect of kung fu.
Just some technical thoughts
There is nothing technical about your opinion.

47

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion…the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics. [/B]

Victor,

Thanks.

Bringing technical things up for discussion certainly is a “without-thank but blame” situation for some.

My view is that technical view points can be discuss openly.
And, you are right it is better to ignore troll, but I do understand where they come from and see thier views, but I disagree technically.

48

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]and again I am just speculating…

due to the belief that with the proper internal and external training - one could avoid being taken to the ground.

In other words - EVEN if thrown/swept (which would be unlikely if this second form of internal rooting and energy dispersal was mastered)…but even if it happened - one could recover and get back up…

But that other forms of grappling wherein one has been grabbed and TAKEN to the ground WITHOUT ANY BODILY SEPARATION…(and therefore the thrower has a much bigger opportunity to continue the grappling on the ground)…

That these things could be avoided due to the measures in place I’ve already discussed…

But few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things.

[/B]

Victor,

I think your view has lots of truth in it.
And, ofcorse, if

" internal power (chi energy)…BOTH…few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things." as you have wrote then one is in great trouble.

Life is a paradox and we have a choice to live with it honestly or in denying.

49

"I am political … " - Hendrick

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion…the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics. [/B]

“I agree with you. It is behave similar to political people in political race. trying to smearing, twisting., discrediting … ect… all political behavior.” - Hendrick

“I am political.
Sure, I do it for all the WCK people …”- Hendrick

I’m sure they appreciate your efforts!

-David

50

hendrik,
good discussion , great information been enjoying and thinking about much that has been shared , the key word is shared , minds working together , much better then personalities and ego’s working against one an other , don’t get sucked into the downward spiral emotional conviction , stick with clear function as you have been , this is by far one of the best threads i have seen in a while ,
the ‘’ wing chun body ‘’ is not so much a visual thing once you incorperate the ‘’ wing chun mind ‘’ mind and body unified . it will take on different appearences as spontainious enregy is achieved .

but to have the road map , navagational tools to understand the body application is very valuable .

so please continue on ,
and thanks for what you have contrubuted so far

51

Hi Ernie,

Thanks.

We cannot close our eyes making we are number one claim while our grapper friends look at us with compassionate heart. We need to know who we are. ofcause, we cannot be everything, everything has limit. and we need to understand capability as wel as limitation.

from shape, to distance, to energy, to fighting stratergy, to mind directing… I think we need to take a part everything , examine them both in a single and complex relationship form. otherwise, we will be screw in chaos or over idealistic simplified.

I believe if one want to get into internal energy training one needs to go into resultant force perspective of understanding and training.

so, the open close… cannot be view as a single monotonous subject.
the open, close.. all exist in the same instant,
it is only a matter of how strong the weight of the vector.
which vector dominate and is it balance or extremely tip?

Victor mention about practising SLT slowly, for me that is for intuition training to master the resultant force of every minor move. So, the key words are Intuition and resultant force. close, open, raise, drop are terminology for the intuition and resultant force training. these training differentiate WCK’s SLT from others set or other sougthern CMA, SLT IS A FULL RANGE SENDING ART.

logic and theory is great, once every years some great thinking comes out. but, ultimately, that intuition, that resultant force we have to face them every instant.

52

hendrik
here is a clip from the article below

[[ “And when hei gung (internal energy training) is added to the po pai sau, the power you are able to put out with that push is unbelievable,” adds Lam. ]]

http://www.chung-hua.com/legends14.htm

some times what looks like a simple push is really the cultivation of short explosive ‘’ sending’’ power
:smiley:
but so few research and apply this skill , why ? it is very difficult to do , the proper position , balance speed timing and plat form to send power from at the blink of an eye , some times pushing is punching hmmmm. so many similarities ,
but a great difference from just a stiff push to a short explosive send :smiley:

53

originally posted by hendrik
1, There no need for Baijong or recovery steps because every steps is already within balance or Zhong which is ready for any engage.
You don’t study SNT CK BJ so it only makes sense you would not understand them.

originally posted by hendrik
Thus, I have never convince the WCK using the 5 steps / array is the original of the WCK from the red boat. This is because it doesnt address the already mature issues , deep penetration in one step (which red boat wck did), which Chinese martial arts as early as Ming Dynasty has to faced —
Your full cup will not allow you the experience of conviction and so you can neither prove nor support this misguided disinformation and lacking experience one can only wonder about your motives behind such statements.

54

Hi Ernie,

Thanks. That is great.

You know, as for fatt geng or sending energy… one has to have the capability of staying in Zhong or balance in any instant.
Without that one can’t do it.

From Yee Chuan’s Wang Xian-Chai’s sending energy method which I have looked closely perform by his close decendent,…, to Yik Kam’s four points inherit by Cho family decribing sending out energy. It seems that dealling with energy always certain needs a balance state, not standing still , but balance in dynamic flow, meaning ----one can release in any part of the body, body or limbs, any place one wish and without pre-condition or getting ready as you see from the normal qigong demo. Those wont work in real life. different type of stuff.

And, it is my believe that all these components needs to be taken apart and fully examine. And share to discuss.

It is very irresponsible if we just blur if off ..
without looking at what is it or put a laber on it.

just some thought

55

hendrik
[[It seems that dealling with energy always certain needs a balance state, not standing still , but balance in dynamic flow, meaning ----one can release in any part of the body, body or limbs, any place one wish and without pre-condition or getting ready as you see from the normal qigong demo. ]]

this goes back to the feeling aspect you capture a subtle motion and add to it or create a echo and then send your power in , dual pulse technology ha ha sounds like a hendrik term

a rock is much easier to move once in motion , often it’s the apperance of great power , but inreality it’s just a well timed release

56

Ernie,

BTW, in the article it mention
" 3. Take the opponent’s position. "

That is what I called deep penetrate concept.
See, the Gracie always deep penetrate.. they take the opponents position and take down. Limb distance art without the capability of take the opponents position doesnt achive much.

almost half a century ago, I was scold to death one night by late Cho Hong-Choy because I was angling and side line-ning… around instead of take the opponents position in a sparing. Cho scold at me said that " that is not WCK. WCK get in and take the real estate under his stance. throw him out from his home. let him has no place to stay."

That must be Cho’s “anti Qing over thrown the manchurian” top secret . :smiley:

57

taking a persons position , [ one step in ] is taught to us from the very first action , very first drill at gary’s , it’s why we use the mattress on the wall to train deep explode power . we must take position and use a short burst to send him flying into the mattress . in the begining the motion is long and un balanced over commited but in time , one inch or so
:smiley:

but this can not be rushed it develops as wing chun mind and body find harmony in motion and intent , but with out the mattress to express full powwer with no worries about hurting the partner , not sure how you would cultivate it

58

Hendrik, Ernie:

My first wing chun sifu, Moy Yat, talked often of how GM Yip Man was able to take people’s space away and unbalance them…He used words like…“they had no place to stand”…

Read Gary Lam’s article about the pushing energy and the damage it can do - as another weapon besides striking…coming off po-pai moves…

Right in line with what Moy Yat used to teach…and with what William Cheung has occasionally taught at semi-private instructor’s seminars.

59

Victor,

Those “no place to stand” technics exist in Yik Kam’s SLT 4th secton.

Later, I found them in the emei 12 post’s Small letter post.

The technics is named as the seven star steps which spread out resembrace the big dipper (?) ( the northern seven stars) There is the forward seven star or backward seven star steps all about how to chase away one… ( too many co-incident which I have found with details from the Emei 12 post, beside the white crane of fujian)

And certainly, I saw those in Biu Jee set also. …

I was told by Late Cho Hong-Choy that Yik Kam defeat Cho’s brothers who train in southern Shao Lin or Nam Kuen or Choy Gar Hung Kuen in read boat by letting them attack him from the side door and Yik just take thier place bounce/send them off naturaly with ease.

Those old generation including my sigung Cho on’s generation were very " taking place" concious. and it is my believe and speculation that one of the key of the taking place, which is the capability of “send” energy from almost all part of the body is a kept secret which they not reveal to public. Since WCK is a short or close range fighting art, those are thier bread and butter, they never seem to shown and talk about it much but will apply every time.

60

At a better stage, I believe a single touch is enough to send someone off balance. Something like a short Bong energy, a little movement with the elbow after contact. IMHO, SNT teaches us to deliver energy instancely without long preparation.