The bodies

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

There are physical body, breathing body, mind body, Qi flow body, Impulse body, potential/momentum body, Jing body to make up an Energy body.

Body Structure is a part of physical body.
Shape is a part of Potential body.
Medirians flow is a part of qi flow body
Yee is a part of impulse body
Perception is a part of mind body
Chan is the …

How do you see and how do you model them?
How to develop them?

Care to discuss?

Everythings goes from Kuen Kuit to physics to metaphysic… but no cult believe or gang propaganda from Qing Dynasty please since we don’t need to over throw Qing and return to Ming. by the way Ming Sucks IMHO. :smiley:

2

Interesting post. I like your insightful comments on potential, impulse, and perception. One of the old ways to tie these topics together is understanding the five elements model and its cycles of promotion and destruction as well as the imbedded theory of Yin/Yang. Recognize the relationship between the elements and associate them to the elements of WCK body of knowledge will help one to make meaningful connections between various WC puzzle pieces. It’s mostly check and balance and knowing what, when, why and how in patterns of things. I find Lao Tzu, Sun Tzu and Mushashi were outstanding pioneers of this sort.

P.S. I’m a WC hobbyist at heart, so I leave the gritty, nitty details of the how to you. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

3

One of the old ways to tie these topics together is understanding the five elements model and its cycles of promotion and destruction as well as the imbedded theory of Yin/Yang. — P

These all are great but it is too general. IMHO.

As in Taiji classic said " every place has its Yin/Yang". So, there is lots and lots of daily details needs to be examined.
As an example, people who is not great in using leg trying to close gap by attacking with rising knee or leg is going to get one into serious troube. See how many got sweap down by Mua Thai or Kyokushin or BJJ? IT doesn’t mean closing the gap with leg doesn’t work. it is just those details and … has to be master and truely experience.

IMHO, SLT is design to experiment with all these different bodies. IF there is a core philosophy of WCK. Then, the SLT is the presentation of this philosophy. or simply ask so what is the philosophy of WCK? what is SLT trying to tell?
Though luck if one has 5 SLT/SNT/ASLT/AASLT/AAOSNT in one system.

4

Okay, Hendrik. The question intrigues me. Putting aside my personal beliefs in SLT’s core fighting design and its corresponding fighting solutions, what does SLT tell us? And what is the core philosophy of WCK? Touching on the metaphysics, all are born to live their life with empty hands in the beginning and will go to their grave with no earthly gains in the end. Is this “it”? I personally find more comforts in this psalmist’s song: “Thou shall show me the path of life. In thy presence, there is fullness of joy. At thy right hand, there are pleasures forevermore.” This personal quest of mine for the Unknown has been most exciting and worthwhile to live and die for every single moment.

Regards,

5

what does SLT tell us? —P

What kind of music one heard when one is doing SLT?
Thunder,
Raining,
Wave washing the beach,
Calm lake’s lite tide,
Wind blowing,
Flute,
Saxaphone,
Drump,
running water,
Flowing Creek.
mid-night,
dawn

What do one heard? -HS

And what is the core philosophy of WCK? -P

What kind of scene one watches while practicing SLT?

Soap opera,
Lion King,
Grouching tiger and Hidden dragon,
rising sun,
Sea surf
Midnight moon,
Fist of Furry
Matrix
Spiderman
Hero
Little Buddha
terminator 2
Rambo
Rocky
Starwars
rainbow
silk in the wind
pressing at a elivating ballon

What do one see? -HS

Touching on the metaphysics, all are born to live their life with empty hands in the beginning and will go to their grave with no earthly gains in the end. --P

True but we all have character even all phenomenon is impermanent.

So, Lets carefully observe and figure out What does SLT’s style close to if it is a human ? The way it moves; the way it dress; the way it shown; the way it behave;

Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Keanu Reeves,
Carrie-Anne Moss,
Cameron Diaz,
Lucy Liu,
Ziyi Zhang,
Chuck Noris,
Bruce Lee?

And why? There might not “An” answer, but via the thinking process one will “see”. --HS

Is this “it”? I personally find more comforts in this psalmist’s song: “Thou shall show me the path of life. In thy presence, there is fullness of joy. At thy right hand, there are pleasures forevermore.” This personal quest of mine for the Unknown has been most exciting and worthwhile to live and die for every single moment. --P

Thus, as heard,
At the instant of Enlightenement, one “see” that “i” is actually just an indicator, the constant flowing positive stream is the “it”. Thus, there after, one flows with this stream to learn, to comprehend, to experience full heart and full mind. Nothing fail but keep getting better, Nothing wrong but keep adjusting to wholesome. Every instant is a great instant, keep growing, keep moving forward, and keep influence in a positive way.

SLT – The Buddha’s immoveable wisdom, the water’s No abiding body movement, the precision movement of Rolex. — The rest, the awareness, the concentration, the Medirian, the breathing, the spine, the spiral with physical path, the linear traveling of Yee,and yet lots not explore yet…, those are details to be learn, examine, understood, experience and master.

So what about the application? the question is when one with all “money” in the bank what do one wants to “get”? Sure, one has to learn how to write a check. Sign a credit card reciep, do a wire transfer.
do a website transfer. automatic monthly transfer. anything … and can use any new invention of electronics way.. or any way.
make the “money” and after learning those ‘way’ to do payment. get whatever as one likes. and the way of payment never stop…new way keep comes up. But then, USD is not Piso not Yen not Euro not Gold not oil … and it doesn’t have to. USD is good in its way. The quetion remain is do one really really really wants to get Diaz as wife? it is a big responsibilites:D. With all those money doesn’t mean one will get Diaz if one not make a decision. Thus, WCK is not a back up. it is a tool. One needs to make a decision of using it or not.

Who to say this is it? Who to say this is not it? What is yours?
That can be different to mine. Who said it has to be the same?
Spring is wide screen 70mm and sound surround it is not belong to any individual it is everyones’ . everyone means everyone… from ants to bird to the jerk in the dark alley to the pricess in the tower.

Sweat dream.:smiley:

6

Aye, it’s a hard saying. Who can fathom the immovable wisdom of Buddha? This will take me some time to fully digest your stuffs especially the precision movement of the Rolex in SLT.
You remind me of Marcel Proust though. I will repost again one of his quotes.

"We do not succeed in changing things according to our desires, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become. - Marcel Proust "

Regards,

7

to the jerk in the dark alley
hey keep me out of this:D

8

Sorry, bro! He is still trapped within his own internal dialogues and won’t be able to boogie you for a while. You see there are such things as the Buddha’s fingers and you, my Monkey King friend are imprisoned inside these powerful and unseen fingers of this thread. Ha! Ha!

9

Originally posted by Ernie
to the jerk in the dark alley
hey keep me out of this:D

OK you always with those great celebrities from Holywood. :smiley:

10

if you ask real nice i can get you corey feldmans autograph , you know only the ‘’ a list ‘’ for me :smiley:

11

!

. Who can fathom the immovable wisdom of Buddha? --P

OK let’s say we brought up the Kuen Kuit.

" Lai Lau Hui Song, Lat Sau Jek Chong" or comes retain, goes send it away. dis attached going direct.

Let’s investigate what does this Kuen kuit means in Heart (mind) domain, in breathing domain, in physical body domain.

Say in breathing domain, what is the breathing pattern while doing comes retain? Goes Send it away? Ok, say comes retain is inhale. Send it away is exhale.

Now, say in Medirian or qi flow domain, what is the pattern while doing comes retain? since the 3 ying hand medirians are travelling out by nature, so it must related to the 3 yang hand medirians…

So… similar with heart, body…ect domain.

Ok, now, comes retain doesn’t mean one always has to use hand , can one use leg? or elbow? or knee? or may be just use vision to track without using physical? …

So …similar with the above example… one can expand to all details…

and now, there is a core, which is the no abiding or no stop mind… what is that? the unfettered Mind book actually give a real detail description… This certainly link up to spiritual level…

So, from vision, hearing, mind capturing… breathing… to physical to spiritual… all are a holistic system. …
Every domain is tangible once one knows about it.

Have Fun!
:smiley:

12

Originally posted by Ernie
if you ask real nice i can get you corey feldmans autograph , you know only the ‘’ a list ‘’ for me :smiley:

Hey can you hook me up with Diaz:D

13

i think she is part cuban and i’m cuban maybe we are related i’ll see what i can do :smiley:

14

Originally posted by Ernie
i think she is part cuban and i’m cuban maybe we are related i’ll see what i can do :smiley:

If I am rich enough, I will get her as the model for SLT.

Or may be if I mix Wing Chun with BJJ and creat a new system.
I will called it Wing Babe instead of Wing Chun. Diaz should be great to model that also. :smiley:

Rene,
You need to reserve a place in www.wingchunkuen.com
for Wing Babe !

After the MANY FAMILY ONE ART.
Then, ONE ART MANY BABE! :smiley:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/columbia/charliesangelsfullthrottle/home_bosley.html
This is a great front page…
NO MORE 6.5 pole. Let’s do something new Rene. :smiley:

Jim, did you develop this new weapon in Hawaii? Look like a pole with computer effect.

15

Okay, Hendrik! So that’s what In N’ Out Burger is all bout! Just in and out. Ha! Ha! Great connection of the Kuen Kuit to the bodies. I agree that much details on the various bodies are needed to flesh out this core frame of non abiding mind. Off to butt my head against Ernie. Thanks for the info on the eyesight or mind capture.

Regards,

16

Hi Pual,

one is for all, all is for one. Kuen kuit is mind. Mind is Kuen Kuit. Kuen kuit is body. Body is kuen kuit. Kuen kuit is breathing. Breathing is Kuen kuit.
hand is eye, eye is hand. … haven’t you see the ten thousand Hand eyes of Kwan Yin? hand can see and eye can Chi (as chi sau)…

IMHO,
As we grow older and older… in life.
We seems to forget about what we want and program on what should we do.

To think I need to do Tan Sau this way with this shape. I need to do Wu sau…I need to use Bong Sau to solve this… otherwise it is not WCK… these are all what we should not thinking. IMHO.

What do we want? if we can have everything as wishes provided not violating others and disturb others’ life and wellfair.

Ok we want to pin him strong. Then, let’s work on pin him strong. sure he is going to be fast, mean,… don’t worried of it is called Tan sau or TAHN Sau. If one trans long time in SLT. It is similar to get seasons into a perfume. We can go to opera house, We can go to Luis Vutton shop… we carry the smell of perfume without thinking of it.

otherwise, today this guy comes with Muay Thai Kick; one is trying to neutralize the kick with Tan, and… tomorrow that guy comes with BJJ … there is no end of what others can and will come out.

If the focus is clear. “I” am going to Pin you down. it can be with tan sau, pak sau,… anything. the body knows best how to adapt since one has it seasons with SLT. Thus, one is not abiding to a technics or stop the mind there. Thus, that is the reason I argue Tan cannot be the ulitmate technics of WCK such as in the tale of Tan Sau Ng. because it violates the no abiding and set one into the dead end of stoping one’s mind in a Tahn. Some might disagree with me and that is great. In No way I claim I know it all and my idea is the perfect supreme ooommmm. No mean of put others down, I like to be toug but reasonable.

The same with life. why worried about if I am a little taller, a little stronger, we go through all what we needs to learn… certainly it is great to stay doing one thing for ten years, if that is the mission of one’s life, or be an obidient student of a sifu. but for others it is impractical to think so. since we all have to walk our own life we all have to grow and grow mean alots of old believe has melt down… like a phoenix burn into ashes clean and rebuild.
a phoenix dies once in every domain until no more domain to be explore…because one is familiar with every domain. Thus, that is mastery. Not the Champion of fighting, but understand what it is about.

To master WCK is no different than to master life. WCK is a mirror and we are the one in the mirror. wck is life. often one never fight even one train WCK for decade. so might as well using wck philosophy in everyday life. one has to live every instant. So, what do one wants? study Tan sau to perfection, that is great. Study Body structure? Be able to analyse every related domain? for entertainment? … the question starts with what do one wants and not what should I do according to others. and the ultimate is what can one serve others to make others benifit and the world more happier and peace.

.

Just my two cents.

17

Beautiful and inspiring words, Hendrik! I like especially the followings:

the body knows best how to adapt since one has it seasons with SLT. Thus, one is not abiding to a technics or stop the mind there. Thus, that is the reason I argue Tan cannot be the ulitmate technics of WCK such as in the tale of Tan Sau Ng. because it violates the no abiding and set one into the dead end of stoping

a phoenix dies one in every domain until no more domain to be explore…because one is familiar with every domain. Thus, that is mastery. Not the Champion of fighting, but understand what it is about.

To master WCK is no different than to master life. WCK is a mirror and we are the one in the mirror.

All I have to do is to make my wish comes true. Watch out, Ernie! This grasshopper can bite! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

18

Pual,

Inspration is not good enough, See, how is the detail of training.

According to Surangama sutra-------

Sutra:
“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.

Commentary:
“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states.” With the wisdom of hearing, one listens inside,
not outside. Not chasing after the objects of sound means not
following them out. Earlier, the text spoke of not following the six
sense-organs and not being turned by them. This is known as,
Returning the hearing to hear the self-nature.
Returning the hearing means not listening to external sounds but
turning back instead to hear your own self-nature. It means,
Gathering in your body and mind.
It means not seeking outside.
Turn the light around and shine it within.
Here the text says that Gwan Shr Yin Bodhisattva “entered the
flow,” which means he returned and listened to the self-nature.
Enter the flow of the Dharma-nature of a sage.
Volume One – Twenty-five Means to Enlightenment 138
He “forgot the objective states.” All the “dust” – the defiling
objects of the six-sense objects as perceived by the six sense-organs
– was forgotten.
“Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were quiet, the
two characteristics of movement and stillness crystallized and
did not arise.” The source of the six sense-organs and six senseobjects
ceased to be. It was severed. Here he entered the flow of his
own self-nature. When that happens, your self-nature is still and
quiet. When this quietude reaches an ultimate point, the appearance
of movement and stillness ceases as well. Basically, movement
appears as movement and stillness as stillness, but now, although
these two characteristics are as clear as crystal, they do not arise.
“After that, gradually advancing, the hearing and what was
heard both disappeared.” As this pure and clear state of quiet
increased, as day by day it became more full and complete, the
hearing that was capable of hearing the self-nature eventually
disappeared. It, too, was gone. The ability to hear and the objects of
hearing both vanished. The organ of the ear was capable of hearing,
and the self-nature was what was being heard, but now they, too,
were gone. “Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to
rely on.” Since the hearing-nature was gone, there was no
attachment. At that time it was “producing the mind that does not
dwell anywhere.”
“Awareness and the objects of awareness became empty.”
Even the perception of awareness vanished – was emptied out.
“When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate
perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also
ceased to be.” The emptiness of the nature of awareness reached an
ultimate state of perfection. Then the mind capable of creating
vanished, as did the states that were made empty, so that then there
wasn’t even any emptiness! As long as emptiness remains, you’re
still attached to emptiness. But now, for Gwan Yin Bodhisattva
there wasn’t even any emptiness…

Sutra:
“World Honored One, because I served and made offerings
to the Thus Come One, Gwan Yin, I received from that Thus
Come One a transmission of the Vajra Samadhi of all being like
an illusion, as one becomes permeated with hearing and
cultivates hearing. Because I gained a power of compassion
identical with that of all Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, I
became accomplished in thirty-two response-bodies and
entered all lands…

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v5.020526.screen.pdf

-Twenty five means to enlightenment.

  • the ear organ

have fun. This is Hendrix Poter — the order of the phenix :smiley:
Ernie, how fast is fast when there is weight less? :smiley:

19

Hendrik,

Thanks! The devil is in the details allright. I can’t see the “meaning” because of the “words”. When I have the Matrix universal translator, I’ll decipher the rest of your buddhist codes. Ha! Ha!

It’s not that I don’t get it at all, but rather how do I know that I really know or understand what I just read. It could be a mind trick where my mind thinks it understands, but is this what it is? For example, on the stillness and movement how do you know that you are done away with the hearing. It could be your mind tricking you into thinking that you are empty when you are not.

Regards,

20

Pual,

Ok. lets then look at something simple.

Say, from the great article of Chen Xiao-Wang.

it written:

“Yundong Guilu”
Chen Xiaowang calls this the “Yundong Guilu” (the Principle of Movements) and expresses it as:

Yi dantien wei hai xin.
Yi dong quan shen bi dong.
Jie jie guan chuan.
Yi qi guan tong.

Dantien is at the heart of the body’s motion
Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

let for fun of it see how many “bodies” or domains involved and what is the details there.

Now, IMHO, the translation has a slight distortion one of the “body” was surely missing. "I " see There are five bodies in the Chinese
writting but only 3 in the English translation.
With one “domain” missing the process cannot be completely synthesis.

I might be wrong. So look at it and see what do you see. IMHO, SLT is a good training for analise the heck out of things… that is the characteristic of the Precision of Rolex Movement. If one can precisely analyze, one can simulate, one can synthesis. one can clone. one can break the gong…
The key of Siu Lien Tau, the training of the small.