IS your SLT as good as Basic Taiji?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

A great article about CXW
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=380

“Yundong Guilu”
Chen Xiaowang calls this the “Yundong Guilu” (the Principle of Movements) and expresses it as:
Yi dantien wei hai xin.
Yi dong quan shen bi dong.
Jie jie guan chuan.
Yi qi guan tong.
Dantien is at the heart of the body’s motion
Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

is a good basic summary.

How do you comprehend these 4 keys?
What do you think? do your SLT/SNT training cover all these points above?

If yes, do you clamp your knee and elbow with body tensingly hold ?
If yes, do you raise your Tahn sau with legs floating and body is scatering into many pieces?

2

Dantien is at the heart of the body’s motion

“Every movement begins at the waist. Even the blinking of an eye.” :wink:

Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

“Body unity”
is a good basic summary.
“Yup”

How do you comprehend these 4 keys?
What do you think? do your SLT/SNT training cover all these points above?

“With Chan Ga TCC”

If yes, do you clamp your knee and elbow with body tensingly hold ?
If yes, do you raise your Tahn sau with legs floating and body is scatering into many pieces?

“No to both”
But I will confer with my TCC teacher Stephen Chao who is a student of Ma Hong.

3

Phil,

Thanks for sharing. So you also study Chen TC ?

4

Hi Hendrik, Phil and list-
The 4 summary principles summarized by CXW are superb, meaningful and important to long term martial development, even though CXW is the major standard bearer of Chen taiji. The principles are not limited to taiji, though some taiji stylists specially in the US assume that other styles dont follow those principles. The principles are “natural”- top flight Chen stylists
understand them but the average taiji folks may just verbally repeat them without understanding them.
In wing chun - proper slt alignment assures the dantien’s place
in the the central axis. In kundalini yoga- it is the manipuram chakra- an important nexus for energy control.
The principles can inform different stances- chen’s lao jia startup,
wing chun’s slt. But the person doing the correction have to know what they are doing. The differences in chen and wc knee positions mean that the kua and the pelvis alignments will have some differences.
Minimizing tensing is important IMO in the journey in both arts.
You find that some top flight karate masters (kanazawa etc)
have gravitated to tachi in order to become softer in their motions.
If wc folks stay tense- good external stylists from muay thai ,
oyama’s karate, and punchers can break them.

joy

5

Joy,

Great post thanks! yup!

Does anyone wants to share about in detail the implementation of CXW’s 4 points in SLT traing?

6

Hendrik

Phil, Thanks for sharing. So you also study Chen TC ?

Yes, but I’m a complete beginner. Luckily the Sifu and I have become friends and he’s really helpful. I didn’t know who his teacher, Ma Hong was until I saw his web site. I think I can use the softer more fluid training he’s giving me as I am getting older.
Phil

7

Phil,

Great!

I have never studied it but my aunt is related to CXW’s disciple decade ago. So I have chance to see what they are doing. Great art.

8

Hendrik and Phil-

Chen Xiao Wang is the standard bearer of the Chen family
and is in the 19th generation.

CXW first started learning from his father then an uncle.
Together with Chen Zhenglei, Chen Dewang, Zhu Tian Cai, and Chen Lizhou inChen village from Chen Zhaokui.

Ma Hong learned from Chen Zhaokui later in Zhengzhou. But they are all impressive.

CXW’s second son is 20th generation master. CXW’s younger brother still teaches in Chen village where he also teaches CXW’s youngest son who apprently is very talented.

The survival of the martial aspects of chen style in chen village
in spite of many upheavals including the cultural revolution is quite a story.

BTW- on the Shaolin forum here at kf0-- see the thread with key words
“political correctness” started witha long aricle by David Ross-
who basically laughs at claimed “Shaolin” connections by many styles.Read and thonk for yourself.

Since moving to Australia CXW has been touring the US about once a year. Fen Zhi Quan , CXW’s senior has also visted SF but is
now retired from teaching and now more interested in the health aspects of the art.

Ip Man’s migration to Macao and HK avoided modifications of martial content in his wing chun which many styles on the mainland had to undergo.
WC is a superb fighting art though it can be used for health and other things as well. Good wc does not contradict the nature based principles of Chen- though the structures and shapes
are quite different. There is yin/yang and soft/hard balancing in good wc too.

9

Joy,

Thanks.
Have seen some of friend’s stuffs. and recent article of CXW.
IMHO, I am convinced that there are more keys which CXW didn’t reveal to public.
Expecially about fajing such as the source of the Jing and the target handling.
For example. if one looks at Chen Ching’s reel silk pictures in his book. There is a “heart” there.

Thus, " I" have heard, there are two location which were called the source of Jing. one is somewhere in the upper body. and the 2nd is somewhere in the hand. The upper boddy one can be link with Dandien.. usual stuffs. but it is late to issue and needs big movements.
As for the source in the hand is the quick one and related to small circle turn into no cycle. In real life it is too late to reel appearance “reel silk” , shift body weight for netralization and then issue… or side step… with the upper body Jing Source activation. Yes, even with following all CXW’s 4 sentence. Those are good only for the form and preparation demo or friendly push hand… IMHO

Sure, SLT is related to the second jing source ultimately, ofcorse :D. (sure sure, always says our own stuffs has it too) where no appearance shift will seen when one issuing and can have multi-ple fajing and probing in no time… The issue is that without real carefull understanding one cannot activate this things… so one stuck and SLT died.

Well, all is “Thus as I have heard”. I might be dreaming. IMHO

10

Hendrik(notes in brackets)

Joy,

IMHO, I am convinced that there are more keys which CXW didn’t reveal to public.

((Of course not. Not a matter of secret but in public – why throw
pearls…))

Expecially about fajing such as the source of the Jing and the target handling.

((CXW can issue from anywhere. Targets come naturally with ting jing and deep knowledge of meridians and points. Some stupid guy jumped him from the back ina demo in Europe- he got a chen elbow and his heart rhythm went crazy-needed emergency care))))

For example. if one looks at Chen Ching’s reel silk pictures in his book. There is a “heart” there.

((A chakra there. Chen man ching(?) is not one of my favorites))

Thus, " I" have heard, there are two location which were called the source of Jing. one is somewhere in the upper body. and the 2nd is somewhere in the hand. The upper boddy one can be link with Dandien.. usual stuffs. but it is late to issue and needs big movements.

(Enough reeling- you can release from any part of the spring.
Enough chum kiu and biu jee- meet at the same crossing))

As for the source in the hand is the quick one and related to small circle turn into no cycle. In real life it is too late to reel appearance “reel silk” , shift body weight for netralization and then issue… or side step… with the upper body Jing Source activation.
((Yes- in good wc too movements become smaller and practcally imperceptible))

Yes, even with following all CXW’s 4 sentence. Those are good only for the form and preparation demo or friendly push hand… IMHO

((A journey of a thousand miles begins…))

Sure, SLT is related to the second jing source ultimately, ofcorse . (sure sure, always says our own stuffs has it too) where no appearance shift will seen when one issuing and can have multi-ple fajing and probing in no time… The issue is that without real carefull understanding one cannot activate this things… so one stuck and SLT died.

((Absolutely- the average taichi guy waves their hands and the average wc guy chain punches or “spars”.))

Well, all is “Thus as I have heard”. I might be dreaming. IMHO

((Shadows. No permanent entities))

11

Re: Hendrik(notes in brackets)

((A chakra there. Chen man ching(?) is not one of my favorites))-J

Not Chen Man Ching. But Chen Ching the ancestor of CXW who wrote a book and all the reel silk. --HS

(Enough reeling- you can release from any part of the spring.
Enough chum kiu and biu jee- meet at the same crossing))

IMHO, there is reeling release which is slow… HS

((Absolutely- the average taichi guy waves their hands and the average wc guy chain punches or “spars”.)) —J

True. because reeling is slow. --HS

12

With all due respects to Tai Chi, I prefer good 'ole boxing anyday.
WC is like Muhamad Ali to Sonny Liston of Tai Chi. From my limited ignorant and full of “self” opinion, WC under Bruce and WSL “shook up the world.” Ha! Ha!

Regards,

13

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]With all due respects to Tai Chi, I prefer good 'ole boxing anyday.
WC is like Muhamad Ali to Sonny Liston of Tai Chi. From my limited ignorant and full of “self” opinion, WC under Bruce and WSL “shook up the world.” Ha! Ha!

Regards, [/B]

Paul,

IMHO,
No offence. Not out of disrespect.

Certainly WSL is great. But, do you know WSL was carried out of the Chinese Martial art Tournament in Taiwan?

As for Chen Fake… those Chen hard liner Martial artist in Beijing is not sissy boy. Anyone has touch hand with the Chen family’s fighters knows how sharp and sponatnoues is thier jing without even roll…

Cheng MAn-Ching defeat the foreign boxer in the embassy…
Wang Xian-Chai and Sun Lu Tang defeat Japanese fighters at old age.
Wang Tie with White Crane of Fujian.

So, every style has its strenght and weakness.

IMHO, as it was said, " win or lose is small matter. But, know oneself and know others.."

A question is does WCK has the vehicle to cultivate the sharp and spontaneous Jing? and how far this type of WCK sharp and spontaneous Jing will achive. If one’s SLT/SNT doesnt par with Taiji’s basic training such as CXW’s. Then one’s WCK is in trouble in a long run. IMHO.

Nasty might win? sure, but if we read about the incident of Yang family with people who play nasty. Nasty doesn’t always work against advance people.

Just some think out loud two cents.

14

Hendrik,

No offense taken, even Wong admitted that he can be downed (just like M. Ali). Like any “bad” boy to the bones , he loved fightings and won’t back down from the thrills of beimo. While I don’t know the whole detail, I suspect that it was this very indomitable spirit that they had to carry him in stretch to pull him away from that Taiwanese tournament.

Fighters are fighters. The strongest in mind and spirit often will be the victor in the end regardless of their martial art style. Perhaps Joe Frazer would have won in a real fight over Ali if they met each other at some dark alley…

Regards,

15

Pual,

Great.

In Leung Jan’s time and my ancestor Cho Soon Time, dead waver has to be signed. Even today’s Kyokusin tournament one sign accident and dead waver since one doesnt wear guard…

IMHO, if MA cannot use for real fight. Then, there is not real MA.
And in the real life, one has to consider how to tan those Baseball bat breaking round horse kick of Kyokushin and skull shatering elbow of Muay thai…

Yang family and Chen family has work as body guard of the loyar and transportation. Wang Xian-Chai was hire by warlord. The Ta Shen Pih Kau’s Ko Xi was a guard for transport precious stuffs… (which is no accident his grand grand student such as Chen KuanTai win the Lui Toi match in SEA)… Those are real guys who live thier life in the edge of razor… IMHO, these people and thier decendent needs to be taken seriously.

What does SLT offer? That is the question. Just an opinion.

16

Hendrik,

This is interesting question of yours. "A question is does WCK has the vehicle to cultivate the sharp and spontaneous Jing? and how far this type of WCK sharp and spontaneous Jing will achive. "

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam! it hits! But I’m curious to hear of your view on the SLT and how it fits to this end.

Regards,

17

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Hendrik,

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam! it hits! But I’m curious to hear of your view on the SLT and how it fits to this end.

Regards, [/B]

I hope that the body know best and Chan and Mushahi and M Ali.

See, Baam and do it is a great talk. However, without the core technology and the evolving technology and the sweat and blood training. IT doesn’t work. How many time M Ali has to be coach and training and correct in the training? how many times Mushashi has to draw his sword and make correction…
Ask oneself, can one command one’s mind to come back to the instant and calm in an instant? if without those capability. the rest is dreaming.

Not even it doesn’t work it ruin one’s body. clamping the elbow will cause chest problem in a long run. clamping knee will cause knee problem in a long run. Clamping elbow, tense chest, force breathing with chest might likely to cause heart disease and hypertension with heart papiltation and short temper. There is no accident that some WCK people die young with heart or liver problem or short temper…

In reality, TaijI has 64 type of Jing issues methods and drill.
Emei has 36 types of method of Jing. not to mention the path of of Jin travel. Without those method, training can be redesign of wheel. or dreaming for money to come down from sky while not working to earn the money.

Chan has the “body” “wu Ji” is the body beyong Ying and Yang.
However, when it gets into application. it is in the domain of Ying and Yang. thus, all medirian… technologies goes.

Certainly, people might think Chan or Dao wisdom talk is the key to everything. NO it is not.
Those are just the Body or Tee. the implementation is the other part of reality. Not to mention most Chan or Dao talks are just smart talk with not content. the question ultimately is does one has it? Does one even understand and can implement what CXW present? when one totally implement what CXW present how does it feels interm of body movement and breathing? If one has a higher mastering in SLT CK BJ then CXW’s writing one should be able to realized them, since those are basic. if not then the reality is not there yet. IMHO.
just my two cents.

18

Hendrik,

“without the core technology and the evolving technology. IT is doesn’t work.
Ask oneself, can one command one’s mind to come back to the instant and calm in an instant? if without those capability. the rest is dreaming.”

To come back and be calm in an instant is more of a mind training to me. Can I keep and let go of his force when it is the moment and with proper and appropriate means? One can wrestle with this problem learning how to control his emotions and thoughts better to capture his center as well as how to feel the other’s positions, where he is empty, etc, in the enviroment of Chi Sau. Perhaps Chi Sau is practical Chan training in disguise! As I sense that this won’t cut it from your point of view, I’ll hold my peace and let you speak more on this core technologies in SLT.

I note that you edited your previous post regarding M. Ali and Mushashi’s training. It is unsettling still that they can achieve such great skills without training in specific knowledges that you spoke of. If there is any formula, it is blood, sweat, training hard and smart toward your goal whatever your heart desires.

Regards,

19

Bracketed replies to Paul H

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam!

((Wow! The details were important to Ali and Musashi- you have to tatse the bitter first. Ali had an “exhibition” match with Lyle Alzado of the Oakland Raiders in their glory days… and Alzado was one steroid driven unholy terror on and off the field. In an interview a sports journalist asked Ali if he was concerned about Alzado’s physical prowess.
Paraphrasing- Ali replied-Not really— it takes a long time to develop a good jab- and getting past a good one isnt easy.

But boxing is really an external sport- the sun sets quite early
and Ali is not throwing too many jabs these days..

Have you read Musashi carefully? The last and fifth ring in the book of five rings is nothingness! “Your everyday practice, as
it accumulates, will eventually reveal true no-thing-ness to you as the ‘spirit of the thing itself’.”

Misquoting Picasso…mediocre artists borrow- great artists steal-
so stealing Paul H’s style- an approrpiate verse for many forum discussions..

'Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow
And with my own hand labour’d it to grow;
And this was all the Harvest that I reap’d-
I came like water, and like Wind I go

Omar Khayyam.))

20

Paul,

To come back and be calm in an instant is more of a mind training to me. —P

Yes and no. if you heart still keep palpitate your mind can wish what it wants. --HS

Can I keep and let go of his force when it is the moment and with proper and appropriate means? One can wrestle with this problem learning how to control his emotions and thoughts better to capture his center as well as how to feel the other’s positions, where he is empty, etc, in the enviroment of Chi Sau. — P

Try it to see if that works? :smiley:

Perhaps Chi Sau is practical Chan training in disguise! As I sense that this won’t cut it from your point of view, I’ll hold my peace and let you speak more on this core technologies in SLT. -P

One needs to see the whole picture. otherwise, things will go extreme. Peace or not reality is reality.

I was chatting with a senior WCK master months ago and he told me Hendrik you face still show when you fajing. That is how far people will notice… So heaven is vast and earth is wide.. sea is deep… there are lots of things needs to be learn… there are plenty of advance people out there. Those ancient ancestors are not writing things down for leisure :D–HS

I note that you edited your previous post regarding M. Ali and Mushashi’s training. --P

yes. I want to stress the important of technics and don’t want people to mistaken that training is not important.
handling of key technology does make a different between two diligent trainers. --HS

It is unsettling still that they can achieve such great skills without training in specific knowledges that you spoke of. If there is any formula, it is blood, sweat, training hard and smart toward your goal whatever your heart desires. --P

There is plenty of people works hard and harder then me but it doesn’t means they all will become millionaires. … making a mouse trap the same way again and again and the price drop more and more… who doesn’t know how to make a mouse trap?.---- a silicon valley saying.