Could someone explain more specifically what this term mean from their WC training method? I’m not sure I know what people are referring to. Thanks!
how WC internal mechanic work depend: Do you got gravity feed, presurise, or flushmaster style WC mechanism? Do you got siphon-jet or wash-down trapping?
Someone would have to define “internal” and its context first.
I’d say it’s mostly to do with spinal alignment, breathing and appropriate “sealing of the breath” for maximum power and minimum injury risk during exertion, in appropriate concert with movement.
No doubt more esoteric answers will be promoted by some.
Theorb, does the washdown go the other direction in the Northern Hemisphere due to Coriolis forces? 
Paul H asks:
What are WC Internal Mechanics?
Paul-
Internal/external–so many varying perceptions and definitions-as is likely to happen with isolated labels. I take your question at face value that you are asking for various POVs.
So— a POV- FWIW:
-
“mechanics” is usually more of an “external” term dealing with
structural relationships- alignments, rooting etc. "Principles’ are better pointers than “mechanics” in understanding the internal aspects of wing chun. -
Wing chun is a balanced system- a blending of external and internal. Good MAs will usually have this balance though the details and sequences of learning will vary.
-
In wing chun the development of each external stage of development should be accompanied with corresponding and coordinated internal development. One can know the mechanics of the slt and still do it very incompletely and wrongly.
-
Some operational meanings of internal include the following
important “qualitative” principles ( each principle has applications in each stage of mechanics and development)
a. emptiness
b. stillness
c. sinking
d. softness
Repeat:
Internal and external have to be blended at each stage of development. Videos generally cant show what is really going on
in development and corrections- directions are necessary IMO..
From my experience, the term “internal mechanics” is used when referring to how to get the most from your training in terms of issuing force and dissolving it from an opponent… very similar to what anerlich was getting at.
Elaborating a little… it often deals with deep muscle relaxation in order to get rid of tension which can cause rigidity, using “whole-body movements” to generate momentum in sort of a wave of force (rather than just one segment of your body to perform a movement), body alignment/posture or structure as well as deep & timely breathing.
Hope this helps.
IMO descriptive terms like “internal” and “external” are pointless, and serve mainly as a distraction. Better terms to be concerned with are “productive” and “nonproductive”.
if you want to develop something that may be “productive” or “useful” generally you have to give that “thing” a name…
repeating the same mantra over an over again can be “productive” but it can also be “nonproductive”
peace
Lots of people use the term “internal” – but what we don’t see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won’t help your punch. 
It comes from SLT,depending on how it is practiced*(1). But many will simply prefer to do Wing Chun as an external style and skip away this aspect.
*(1) It takes times also!
Originally posted by t_niehoff
Lots of people use the term “internal” – but what we don’t see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won’t help your punch.
Because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. On the other hand if you are saying the words have been exploited then I agree.
Dave
Because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. On the other hand if you are saying the words have been exploited then I agree.
**It’s not a matter of me “understanding” or not – it has to do with evidence. The internal/external distinction just gets in the way.
You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won’t help your punch.
heheh - imaginary things? i guess it all depends on your definition of internal…which is a discussion that can go round and round and round. time better spend training SNT
i agree that combat results are the benchmark for ‘good’ WCK, its what its designed for after all, but if people can improve their attributes by thinking and training in a certain way then thats good too surely?
as long as they learn to apply the attributes to practical combat.
later
Hey Terence and everyone!
Lots of people use the term “internal” – but what we don’t see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won’t help your punch.
I have to full out disagree with this. There is a significant difference in results that can be felt right away with the proper “internal” training. I really do not like the term Internal or External as I prefer Soft Jing or Hard Jing. Its actually best if you have years and years of Kung Fu under your belt that way you can feel your body go thru the changes. Its an amazing feeling and it most certainly will help your tools.
Leung Jan told Wong Wah Sam:
Lik Yiu Noi Gong: Your power must be internal!
I have shared the training I was taught with a number of people who have many years of training under their belt and anyone who trained regularly and properly will acknowledge the significant changes they will feel.
Leung Jan also told Wong Wah Sam:
Siu Lin & Dai Lin! Practice it often it will change you!
This was more about what will go on inside your body such as the tendons and sinews and joints.
I can also say that there is a noticeable difference on the recieving end of an internal engine blow and your body becomes very very healthy as a side product. I have not had a cold in a few years. A helathy body is a strong body for fighting.
So, call it BS labelling or call it what you every you feel like but the fact is our ancestors felt it was and important part of their WCK and its nothing mystical or anything weird. Just good old fashioned WCK.
Gotta run,
Thanks, folks! I enjoy reading your excellent views. Terence, what is Robert’s view on Internal mechanics? For those coming to the seminar, this info may be quite helpful.
Paul,
Robert has his own perspective. He’s a traditional chinese medicine physician so he tends to look at the world, including the traditional martial arts such as WCK, from that perspective. I’m not a TCM physician and don’t look at the world in that way. This is what folks like Jim, citing Leung Jan, don’t seem to get – that a perspective isn’t true and correct, it’s just a way of looking at things. What matters is if that perspective is helpful or productive for you in getting results. IMO how our WCK ancestors from another culture, in another era, and with less knowledge looked at the world isn’t particularly useful to most of us.
Moreover, even if there is something (a certain mechanics, for instance) behind that term, we don’t need the term to get the thing. For example, Tim Cartmell (shenwu.com) trained xingyi, TJQ, and Bagua (the three ‘original’ internal arts) in China for over a decade. During that time, he fought and won full-contact tourneys in Asia. He knows the internal arts. He’s also a BJJ blackbelt. And now he hosts a really great amatuer NHB event. He classifies BJJ as an “internal art.” The Gracies have probably never heard the term, don’t know what the term means, and could care less – that term in no way helps them either learn BJJ or develop great skill in BJJ. They too don’t look at the world like the ancient chinese.
So I don’t think that for most of us, thinking along the TCM lines is particularly helpful in learning or in developing skill. In fact, my experience is just the opposite – that these sorts of things just get in the way. Just look at all the internal guys and how little genuine fighting skill they have. But they’re all very proudly tell you that they are internal martial artists!
Tim Cartmell is a great guy! I like the way he moves his body - very smooth and natural. Don’t you think, Terence, that this is due to his proper application of “internal mechanics”? Is internal arts really that bad for combat today?
You miss the whole point of my posts: there is no internal and external, and it doesn’t help to think that way. There is just plain body mechanics, and to achieve our objective, whatever it is, we need to use the proper body mechanics. This is true in any physical activity (funny how there is only “internal power” in certain mysterious asian fighting arts – if it is so effective, why don’t we see these internal powers in other physical activities?). For example, there is no internal hip throw and external hip throw – it’s rather the case of it takes a certain mechanics to pull off a hip throw with maximum leverage. And we can judge how good our mechanics are by how well we do that. Be concerned with the results and not silly labels.
BTW, why do you find it helpful to resort to ancient chinese cosmology to develop physical skill?
I think the philosophy will influence on the manners of how people fight and develop their skills. The Chinese concept of yin/yang is very important in WC skill development.
Hey Terence,
Robert has his own perspective. He’s a traditional chinese medicine physician so he tends to look at the world, including the traditional martial arts such as WCK, from that perspective. I’m not a TCM physician and don’t look at the world in that way. This is what folks like Jim, citing Leung Jan, don’t seem to get – that a perspective isn’t true and correct, it’s just a way of looking at things. What matters is if that perspective is helpful or productive for you in getting results. IMO how our WCK ancestors from another culture, in another era, and with less knowledge looked at the world isn’t particularly useful to most of us.
Terence, I am sorry but I think I get it and know what results it gives as I can feel it and anyone I have shown can feel it in a real short period of time. The human body has not changes much in the last few hundred years. By the time most Kung Fu and martial art was developed or formulated they fully understood how to maximize the bodies power/health. Which happen to work hand in hand and are not seperate in chinese martial art. Its not rocket science after all. What I find really odd is that for you to comment on if something is useful or not if they have not spent the time to cultivate the things they discuss. Or! Maybe you did but just did not get the results so it may go back to how you were shown. I am thinking out loud here as I cannot understand how someone could not feel the results if they went thru the simple training it takes to develop this stuff as part of your art. Besides. ALL Kung Fu was based around knowledge of the inside and outside inlcuding WCK. Going thru the tendon/sinew changes is EASY! Opening and closing the joints is EASY. Yup! EASY Sorry to not make it sounds very complicated but it is and the results are easily noticed and felt. So, making comments about people being from a differrent time in the world having useless info. for us modern folk is far from accurate. Its simple training that is right inside your forms. Then! You train it to be useful like anything. If you decide not to do or do not understand how to develop it thats fine but claiming something is useless without giving it a fair shot is not right. Leung Jan was telling his people something that he felt was important for them to know about WCK. Just that simple.
Moreover, even if there is something (a certain mechanics, for instance) behind that term, we don’t need the term to get the thing. For example, Tim Cartmell (shenwu.com) trained xingyi, TJQ, and Bagua (the three ‘original’ internal arts) in China for over a decade. During that time, he fought and won full-contact tourneys in Asia. He knows the internal arts. He’s also a BJJ blackbelt. And now he hosts a really great amatuer NHB event. He classifies BJJ as an “internal art.” The Gracies have probably never heard the term, don’t know what the term means, and could care less – that term in no way helps them either learn BJJ or develop great skill in BJJ. They too don’t look at the world like the ancient chinese.
Maybe he uses that term because its something he is used to saying and in all honesty any art that utilizes a specific structure or trains a structural alignment as part of their art is Internal. Internal mechanics! Although, thats just one part of it. Thats why I dont like to classify them as internal or external but rather soft/hard or dead as you can have alignment but lack the inside cultivation that goes along with it. Egg shell with no yoke. But! You can fight with anything if you train hard enough. it all comes down to the individual and how he was taught/trains!
So I don’t think that for most of us, thinking along the TCM lines is particularly helpful in learning or in developing skill. In fact, my experience is just the opposite – that these sorts of things just get in the way. Just look at all the internal guys and how little genuine fighting skill they have. But they’re all very proudly tell you that they are internal martial artists!
Perhaps you should meet some authentic Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Whitebrow fighters that have cultivated a high degree of skill and test it out. These thing do not get in the way unless they are taught in a stupid mystical way. Its just simple stuff that goes along with the full package of any art. ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS! Your not doing anything extra or special. Most martial art is nothing more than the shell with no yoke and its not about being a TCM Doctor but simple body cultivation IMO. The problem is most dont pass on the inside info. or some just dont care about it.
Now! Lets use your typical swimming comment. How much genuine fighting skill is out there in any art with the bulk of people? You acknowledge over and over that there is not much. So, its up to the individual and if they are taught it in a simple way they will think of it in a simple way (keep in mind that ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS) and get out and use it. If they are taught that it will make you float or dance on clouds then they will get pounded. Basics are basics and all Kung Fu has this stuff. Some prefer not to practice and some do. All the best of the best of any art or chinese system had this stuff. It makes a difference IMO. Can you develop good skill without it? Sure but if you tain hard with it you will feel the difference.
structure, mechanics, tendons/sinews, opening/closing of the joints/torso, breathing, spine discharge, rise/sink etc. etc..
Lots of stuff that goes along with any art. Nothing majical!
We can agree to disagree fully on this topic!
But thats not unusual for us! hehehe
Off to NY for the weekend!
Take care guys and Gotta Run!
Regards,
Jim R.
Hi Jim- agree with you. WCK came out of the context of a Chinese approach to coordinating body, mind and energy.
It didnt come out of a western bio mechanics course. The internal and external are integrated in good gung fu.
Internal- is part of nature too and not limited to Asia. Simply- different paradigms have focussed on different aspects of nature.
And with increased global interactions since WW2- we are still sorting a lot of comparative things out.
But i dont debate these things much and am not on a missionary journey.
If folks are satisfied with standard mechanics- I wish them well.
I am not Chinese and am not a wannabe- the blend of external and internal “works” for this non Chinese me and other folks I know. And yes- against resisting opponents.
The proven idea of “fajing” is well known in the internal arts. Explosive fajing in wing chun is a verifiable fact. the advantage of wing chun(over some other internal arts) is that there is an excellent blend of the external as well- the alignments, the lines of attack, the strategies and tactics and many other things.
TCM is a different matter. While there are overlaps in approaches to the human body. in TCM and TCMA.. good wing chun teaching, learning and
practice can give results. Its not mumbo jumbo or mysticism. And one does not have to be a TCM person to do or understand wing chun.
Keep repeating- wing chun is one approach to martial activity- it is not the only one. Conversely not every approach to “fighting” that works for someone is necessarily wing chun. It may be part of one’s own repertoire.
Its a big world out there and it is presumptuous for any one to speak of productivity in all of wing chun.
Lots of us have not really met each other and there can be unwarranted presumpions reagrding what others do.
We can discuss things on KFO- but there is no selected jury here
to pronounce judgments..