I just found the following short clip from a DVD made by sifu Douglas Wong, where he demonstrates some Snake techniques that should be of interest to Wing Chun practicioners.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR48H30UG4
Sorry, if it has been posted before.
That stuff either will not work or is such low-percentage to make it useless.
This just underscores the problem of having nonfighters, like Wong, teaching fighting – they are the blind leading the blind. They have no significant, useful experience with fighting (and trying to use their “techniques”) to draw upon, and so can’t develop fighting skill, judgment, or understanding.
[QUOTE=HardWork8;889322]I just found the following short clip from a DVD made by sifu Douglas Wong, where he demonstrates some Snake techniques that should be of interest to Wing Chun practicioners.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR48H30UG4
Sorry, if it has been posted before.[/QUOTE]I liked it.
Can’t see it’s relevance to my wing chun. I don’t do any hand conditioning that would safely enable me to use finger strikes, finger strikes are overrated in Yip Man lines even within biu gee, and I don’t any sideways heading strikes unless I’m well inside working in or getting out of a clinch.
Maybe it has more relevance to mainland styles.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;889334]That stuff either will not work or is such low-percentage to make it useless.[/quote]If you have the position, you’ve conditioned your hands, don’t have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don’t want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. However, those four criteria make it pretty low percentage!
This just underscores the problem of having nonfighters, like Wong, teaching fighting – they are the blind leading the blind. They have no significant, useful experience with fighting (and trying to use their “techniques”) to draw upon, and so can’t develop fighting skill, judgment, or understanding.
Sorry, do you know this bloke?
Finger strikes can and do work, if you have properly conditioned fingers, something that very few do.
Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;889337]
If you have the position, you’ve conditioned your hands, don’t have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don’t want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. However, those four criteria make it pretty low percentage!
[/QUOTE]
That’s precisely my point – people don’t “see” because they approach this from a theoretical POV (you THINK it should work). Instead of approaching it from theory, from conjecture, why not approach it from the POV of experience? When, where, etc. have we ever seen it work?
Try this experiment, get a decent opponent, someone with some good boxing, muay thai, MMA, etc. skills and with some decent attributes, then have him put on goggles, and spar with you at 100 – tell him to really try to knock you out, take you down, pound the living daylights out of you. Then, you try to hit him on the goggles with your fingers. See what happens.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;889368]That’s precisely my point – people don’t “see” because they approach this from a theoretical POV (you THINK it should work). Instead of approaching it from theory, from conjecture, why not approach it from the POV of experience? When, where, etc. have we ever seen it work? [/quote]Early wrestlers in Virginia were infamous for gouging out eyes, biting off noses, ripping off ears etc… where have we ever seen them!? :rolleyes:
Try this experiment, get a decent opponent, someone with some good boxing, muay thai, MMA, etc. skills and with some decent attributes, then have him put on goggles, and spar with you at 100 – tell him to really try to knock you out, take you down, pound the living daylights out of you. Then, you try to hit him on the goggles with your fingers. See what happens.
Blah blah blah… I don’t need to! I’ve gone the full contact route, and I don’t pretend to have the conditioning, the skills or the will to do what that guy was advocating in that vid: and I do know enough good submissions not to need it.
But my point still stands: let me rephrase it as you don’t seem to have understood it the first time…
It’s low percentage, but…
If you have the position, you’ve conditioned your hands, don’t have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don’t want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, it would work.
Oh, and Terence… do you know that guy?
somewhat relevant:
A buddy of mine and I will debating the use of fixed blades, not wither they work, but more like the size of them and things of that nature.
We got to the knife used in the move “the Hunted”, called the tracker, not an ideal fighting knife to be sure, but a good survival/all purpose type blade.
His view was that it was too bulky and too heavy and too un-balanced to be of any good as a decent fighting blade, my point was that if one trained with it, the law of specificty would “take over” and and one would be as good with it as ones training allowed you to be.
He argued not, so I gave him a Khurki, far bulkier than the tracker and mentioned how well the Ghurkahs use them, he was unconvinced so we “sparred” a bit ( as much as one can with a live blade, LOL), he afterwards agreed that someone well trained with a heavier blade can make it work, though we were BOTH in agreement that it is far than the ideal blade for knife fighting.
sanjuro ronin and others.
You have to have a top quality Gurkha to show you what a kukhri(of various sizes) can really do.
As in other activities there are differences between rank and file and the elite.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;889380]Early wrestlers in Virginia were infamous for gouging out eyes, biting off noses, ripping off ears etc… where have we ever seen them!? :rolleyes:
Oh.
[/QUOTE]
I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past. Do you think it wise to base conclusions about fighting on what one poorly skilled guy can do to another?
Blah blah blah… I don’t need to! I’ve gone the full contact route, and I don’t pretend to have the conditioning, the skills or the will to do what that guy was advocating in that vid: and I do know enough good submissions not to need it.
You may have done “full contact” but that isn’t what I’m talking about – I’m talking about drawing conclusions from evidence (experience) as opposed to theory or conjecture.
But my point still stands: let me rephrase it as you don’t seem to have understood it the first time…
It’s low percentage, but…
If you have the position, you’ve conditioned your hands, don’t have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don’t want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, it would work.
And let me repeat, no, you BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION that it would work.
Oh, and Terence… do you know that guy?
He’s quite well-known.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;889394]You have to have a top quality Gurkha to show you what a kukhri(of various sizes) can really do.
As in other activities there are differences between rank and file and the elite.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
That was my point Joy…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;889397]I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past. Do you think it wise to base conclusions about fighting on what one poorly skilled guy can do to another?[/quote]No, that was not evidence for this case. I’ve told you I think it’s very low percentage, and I’m not defending Wong any further than to say it could work. I was using that example as one example of how things have been proven to work without video evidence.
It’s a long time since I read that article, but I think you should reread it too - I was under the impression that some of those guys mentioned were the pioneers who brought the long-continued traditions of English bare-knuckle and catch to the US, and some of them therefore would have been very capable fighters, not just ‘a poorly skilled guy’.
The rest of your post seems to be suggesting based on this one case that I don’t understand scientific method, and that my whole logic process is ****ed. Quite funny, but doesn’t need an answer.
He’s quite well-known.
OK, I didn’t know that.
A guy I know who is highly skilled in WC and other MA’s, and has extensive ring, security, and streetfighting experience, and is fairly amoral as regards hurting people, doesn’t use “finger strikes” per se, but uses the thumb in the eye, from the inside corner outward to good effect.
It’s not a stopper against a fully committed opponent, but he claims it works in situations to stop one guy temporarily while he’s dealing with another, or to indicate to someone looking for a fist fight that he’s biting off more than he wanted to chew.
Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.
I’ve seen demos of Karate guys that can split apples in mid-air and break boards with their fingers. Impressive. It must take loads of conditioning. But then again, I’d bet these guys can punch like battering rams as well.
He’s quite well-known.
Probably more so in the US. He’s been around for decades, one of his books was my first MA-related book purchase in 1977. He has a number of students or associates that you often see in bit parts in Hollywood movies or on TV, Like James Liu (?) who was in Perfect Weapon, and Al Leong, the Asian guy with long hair from Lethal weapon.
He’s always been a bit on the pudgy side for a supposedly top class martial artist IMO, but his books were OK.
None of that related to my VT at all.
The snake style which i think relates to VT body mechanics, in my VT - is quite different to what is shown in the vid.
My elbow behaviour and Wrist hinge action (connected to my horse) where i develope power/force in actions are not even similar at all to whats in the clip.
It certainly had me laughing though when he mentioned using finger techs on dead rabbits LOL
Just like boards… dead rabbits dont hit back. :D:cool:
DREW
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;889337]I liked it.[/quote]
I am glad :). Douglas Wong is a good communicator and one needs to be one in order to put forward the sometimes unusual techniques and concepts that are present withing the kung fu family of styles.
He seems to have the “Kung fu Essence”. Or at least that is how he comes across in his videos. I have 3 earlier videos from him.
That is a pity because the relevant hand conditioning can open up your combat options. However, I appreciate that nowadays many people don’t have the time to put into such training, specially if the MA school does not have this training in its curriculum.
As far as Biu Jee in my lineage of Wing Chun goes, I have been told that there are two versions that are taught. One version is the standard one and the other is the version that is taught to the few. I suspect that the snake type finger strikes will have more relevance in the latter version.
It looks like it so far, but then I wouldn’t be suprised if the Snake manifests itself in one of the Yip Man lineages as well, because I really believe that all Wing Chun has these elements. Maybe a Yip Man practitioner can pleasantly surprise us in this thread.
There is a 5th important and very fundamental factor and that is the internal training that will creat the softness/subtleness needed to execute the required techniques and with the correct energy.
The Snake hints at the internals of Wing Chun. Wong’s description of what he teaches as “Female” also hints at this fact.
The Snake (together with the Crane, Tiger and the Dragon) is a logical area of investigation/crosstraining for serious Wing Chun practitioners, that is and as always, after they have built a good understanding of the core style first.
I know the question was not aimed at me, but here goes. Douglas Wong has experience in various Kung Fu styles INCLUDING WING CHUN and has been around for a zillion years.
He has created his own kung fu style called “White Lotus”. However, unlike the various hybrid “kung fu” styles that one sees so often nowadays, his system seems to be the real deal.
[QUOTE=Liddel;889497]None of that related to my VT at all.[/quote]
I believe that it does. Perhaps some sifus who teach it, do not give these aspects any emphasis, for whatever reason.
The Snake element in most Wing Chun will refer to the various finger strikes to vulnerable areas and to the internal/softness training necessary to make those strikes work.
The softness is also relevant in the “listening” ability that is present in all high level kung fu.
That is because he forgot to tell us that he first killed the rabbits with his Tiger strikes.
I don’t think that anyone will hit you back once you have taken out their eyeball…If they do, then you better run fast…:eek:
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;889397]I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past.[/quote]
I suspect that you wouldn’t want one of these “poorly skilled” fighters coming at you in a bar.
“Poorly skilled” guys have been gouging each other’s eyes and biting noses for centuries. What makes you think that a fighter trained in kung fu cannot do the same?
Talking of experience, how many Snake stylists have you defeated in real fights, recently? Actually, how many ANY stylists of kung fu have you defeated, recently?
I am asking a logical question, here!
Actually it is you who BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION THAT IT WOULDN’T WORK!
OR do you want me to send an email to Douglas Wong asking him to gouge somebody’s eye for real on YouTube? LOL,LOL,LOL! But then some people would say that the, now blind man, was being compliant…LOL,LOL,LOL!
As I always say, a good laugh never hurts.
Apparently by the wrong people, as well.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;889338]Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.[/QUOTE]
The same probably holds true for Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu who has been conditioning his hands for decades.
[By the way, and this is going back a bit and is off topic, but has to be stated for the sake of enlightenment - Higaonnas Goju-ryu DOES address the ground scenario, just like Kyokushinkai did many years ago!]
[QUOTE=HardWork8;889506] I believe that it does. Perhaps some sifus who teach it, do not give these aspects any emphasis, for whatever reason. [/QUOTE]
You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun… cause you havent seen me 
So its actually fact that it has no relevance…TO ME
I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake) and they are emphasised but like i said the method is different to that shown, no more no less.
Its fine because i haver my own ideas towards VT many of which dont fit with a lot of other views on VT… as one example -
[QUOTE=HardWork8;889506]
The Snake element in most Wing Chun will refer to the various finger strikes to vulnerable areas and to the internal/softness training necessary to make those strikes work. [/QUOTE]
IMO BJ is not about finger strikes. I know many hold to this idea and thats fine.
For me its more about the crossover mechanics of what the fingers strikes make you do. Its about developing a different power and its applications outside the theory of the other 2 forms, IMHO people who reach BJ focus too much on the finger strikes like they are the death touch or something, when Finger strikes are in the other forms already…but thats another thread. LOL
[QUOTE=HardWork8;889506]
The softness is also relevant in the “listening” ability that is present in all high level kung fu. [/QUOTE]
High level Kung fu is all but dead IMO but ok. LOL
[QUOTE=HardWork8;889506]
I don’t think that anyone will hit you back once you have taken out their eyeball…If they do, then you better run fast…:eek: [/QUOTE]
Who are you Pai Mei ? this is not the world of Kill Bill… you will never pluck my eyeball without it being blind luck. Poke gouge sure.
Ive had a finger in the eye up to the first knuckle on the index finger, it was an accident by my sparring partner but i was still standing although my eye was watering like a faucet…
Like anthing i wouldnt want to rely on one tech, but its obvious gouges and fingers have thier place.
Its amazing to me what people can do in pain and thats from first hand expereince of going on ride alongs with police friends…:o
DREW
[QUOTE=Liddel;889512]You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun… cause you havent seen me
So its actually fact that it has no relevance…TO ME[/quote]
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
As long as they fit the Wing Chun principles then I don’t think that there is anything wrong with different ideas and individual approaches.
Before we go any further let me say that I am not at Biu Jee level,yet. What I know about Biu Jee is based on my Sifu’s explanations.
Bj is about finger strikes and a whole lot of other things as well.
Interesting point and valid points, but again and as far as my lineage is concerned there are two versions of Biu Jee so I will have to hold judgement until or if I am taught the second version.
I know for a fact that high level kung fu is alive and (not so) well, nowadays.
People see such techniques as singular actions. If thug is coming at me 30 miles an hour with all guns blazing then plucking his eye would be very difficult, but then if he walks into my fists first then I suppose plucking his eye would not be so challenging, if I were that way inclined that is.
But I am sure that for the most part, it knocked the fight out of you.
They do, and that is why they exist in kung fu.
Agreed!
But again, if we use that logic then we will never hit anyone in self defense because they may withstand the pain and make minced meat out of us.:eek:
[QUOTE=anerlich;889496]A guy I know who is highly skilled in WC and other MA’s, and has extensive ring, security, and streetfighting experience, and is fairly amoral as regards hurting people, doesn’t use “finger strikes” per se, but uses the thumb in the eye, from the inside corner outward to good effect.
It’s not a stopper against a fully committed opponent, but he claims it works in situations to stop one guy temporarily while he’s dealing with another, or to indicate to someone looking for a fist fight that he’s biting off more than he wanted to chew.
I’ve seen demos of Karate guys that can split apples in mid-air and break boards with their fingers. Impressive. It must take loads of conditioning. But then again, I’d bet these guys can punch like battering rams as well.
Probably more so in the US. He’s been around for decades, one of his books was my first MA-related book purchase in 1977. He has a number of students or associates that you often see in bit parts in Hollywood movies or on TV, Like James Liu (?) who was in Perfect Weapon, and Al Leong, the Asian guy with long hair from Lethal weapon.
He’s always been a bit on the pudgy side for a supposedly top class martial artist IMO, but his books were OK.[/QUOTE]
The thumb gouge you describe is quite common as a grappling counter in a few MA, Goju and Kyokushin for example ( since I trained in them) have them in their self-defence curriculm and, of course, Steven Seagal does a fine example of the two handed ( or should I say two thumbed) one in Marked for death
It works really well of a “raking palm strike” and, while not a fight ender as part of a strike, it can be quite the fight ender as part of a “ripping” technique on an immobilized head.