Grand Unification Theory

As I was redoing the WCK Archives for the server transfer, I remembered the original reason I started them - to see if all the different stories, when taken as complementory rather than contradictory, could paint a more complete picture. In that spirit, I present the grand unification theory of WCK origins, melding the VTM with Hendrik and with my views, with a little of what Tom didn’t say.

In Fujian province, whether you believe in the Southern Shaolin Weng Chun Diem, or in Weng Chun country, the original system (either Shaolin Lohan imported from Henan or a native Fujian system) was developed by either Ming generals and monks, or civil martial master(s)/generations. This was exported by Jee Shim or someone now referred to as Jee Shim to Guangdong and ended up on the Red Junks and eventually became known as Weng Chun Kuen after the hall or county, the system taught by Dai Fa Min Kam to Tang, Dong, Lo, etc. and their descendants who passed on to Andreas Hoffmann.

The original art continued to develop in Fujian and the next import, half way between Weng Chun Kuen and what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen, was also exported to Guangdong’s Red Junks and accredited either properly or honorifically to Cheung Ng. Fa Min Biu/Hung Gam Biu passed this art down and it spread to Guangzhou and the New Territories where Garette Gee sifu learned it from Wong Ming and Yip Man learned some of the technical aspects from a man he visited 6 times a year who he nicknamed Leung Bik and passed it on to William Cheung who he thought it would suit better.

The other opera performers continued to refine the art and blended it with the Sup Yee Jong engine of Sichuan Emei’s Golden Summit Temple (which may have come from Mui Shun or someone recorded with that name, and or Yim Wing Chun/Leung Bok-Cho or people recorded with those names), developing what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen and Wong Wah-Bo passed it down to Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen from whom the Koolo, Yip Man, Sum Nung, and other lineages descend, and most of us in turn, and Yik Kam, who even more closely favored the Sup Yee Jong, passed it on to the Cho family, from whom Cho Hung-Choi learned from both brothers and passed it on to Hendrik.

Thus each story fills in the gaps and fleshes out the others ones, makes sense from senselessness, and respects (and leaves room for) all the traditions.

Whabam.

Rene,
Thanks for all the hard work and time you put in to that… but you could have just asked to use my time machine. LOL :smiley:

Good Job, Well Done!

Hi Rene,

Grand Unification Theory

Isn’t that exactly what we have not been saying all along? Where the heck have you been? :wink:
My possession of the secret scrolls theory had you scared didn’t it? You had to finally give up the secrets of the scroll and now we finally know who didn’t return Phil’s copy. :stuck_out_tongue:
Whew, now that we have 400 years of history all wrapped up, back to bong sao vs a straight punch.

Vicky
:smiley:

Rene Ritchie. Diplomatic Corps candidate…hmmmm…grin.
PRedmond

Rene,

Hahahhaa. Sorry, I cannot agree about the Shaolin and Weng Chun and Leung Bik … :smiley:

For discussion sake not about which lineage is better or oldest…

1, Center line theory is core of FUjian White Crane.

2, the Sun post is a Trade mark of Fujian White Crane.

today’s WCK based very very heavily into these two core.

So where are these cores from? MIng? Shao LIn? Cheong Ng?
Until Solid evidents shows the Ming , Shao LIn, Cheong Ng…
MIng, Shao Lin, Cheong Ng .. all are just good speculation.

3, Weng Chun Dien cannot equal to Weng Chun county.
Weng Chun Dien is a legend Weng Chun county is fact.
Weng Chun Dien is based on the legend of Hu Wui-Chien.
Weng Chun county and Fang’s white crane is recorded in Qing history.

Analogy:
MIT can be Make IN Taiwan or Massatusate Institute Technology.
Two very different things.

4, it is the factual evidents which will speak for itself. I politely ask them to show factual evidents if they cannot show factual evidents. Then, it has to classified and different class.
One can write articles, trying to prove that south Shao LIn exist…
But even south shao lin exist or Weng Chun Dien exist. That still doesn’t said they related to Wing Chun Kuen. We need to look into Kuen Kuit to cross exam this. no discount. :smiley:

“The original art continued to develop in Fujian and the next import, half way between Weng Chun Kuen and what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen, was also exported to Guangdong’s Red Junks and accredited either properly or honorifically to Cheung Ng. Fa Min Biu/Hung Gam Biu passed this art down and it spread to Guangzhou …”

Where is their SLT come from? can that be answer with evidents?

Sorry Rene, I can’t comprimise factual and legend. and Show me and evident that support

IF it is about scientific… then there is only one bar. that is show factual evidents. without it it is not even a hypothesis. Not to mention a theory.

I might sound cruel. but then, what is the point if one makes a theory just to make everyone happy? But not to show the factual evidents derived one?

politically, i am dead wrong. but historian don’t even give face to emperor:D

Hi Rene,

While I marvel at your infinite labours to come up with the one theory that binds or rules all WC rings of history, personally I find this attachment to WC history is a little bit too morbid and grotesque. “When from a long-distant past nothing subsists, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered, still, alone, more fragile, but with more vitality, more unsubtantial, more persistent, more faithful, the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls, ready to remind us, waiting and hoping for their moment, amid the ruins of all the rest; and bear unfaltering, in the tiny and almost impalpable drop of their essence, the vast structure of recollection.- Remembrance of Things Past (Marcel Proust)”

"We do not succeed in changing things according to our desires, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become. - Marcel Proust "

Perhaps, one of these days you and other like-minded people will appreciate this better.

Regards,

Hendrik,

Please have a look at this thread and let me know what you think:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23040

Rene,

Thanks.

You know, IMHO, I have not yet see any hard evident that Yijingjing can link to SLT. Even by the theory of Yijingjing, it is not likely that it related to SLT. Again different DNA and practicing structure.

One might say Yijingjing has twist… but I don’t buy that. YiCingCing is body and mind or “Yoga” type exercise for health primary. My view is chinese always trying to link oneself to the famous and sometimes pulling the reverse gear big time. IN the WCK case alots of people have not much literate. So, they make mistakes they makes.

IMHO, the author doesn’t have a broad view and indepth study of other chinese martial art. He is just very generally qouting Shao LIn and Taiji… Where is the White Crane which we all know with factual evident that related.

I can open up another can of worm from ming dynasty. beside, emei, White crane which might influencing the figthing application of WCK. But I won’t,

I have wait and wait to see what all researcher willl say. but up to now, seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin… hakka… so if hakka.. southern mantis… how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood then lung..

one can read all the books. one can go to china for side seeing for 1000x trip or live there… but if one’s heart is not purely seeking… one will not see the obvious but leading by traditional myth.

HInt. read the General Qiqikuang’s book from Ming Dynasty. It doesn’t said Shao Lin boxing… so what influence WCK from Ming?

We all can go to shao lin , take a picture with the abbort there. take a picture posting… but imho, i like to go further then that.

start from one’s body, understand the Kung Fa and its influence on one’s body in detail. …

it is like i can go to standford university, take a picture with the dean of physics… sit in the class room… but that doesn’t proof my physics class is rooted from standford.

Question

Hendrick wrote:
>>I have wait and wait and all researcher seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin… hakka… so if hakka.. southern mantis… how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood?<<

Can you explain how Nam ton long begins with Metal,(Lung/Colon), and SLT begins with the Liver/Gall Bladder (Wood)?

Hey Phil!

I think Hendrik was referring to the Head position of South Mantis as it is indeed different from WCK. WCK head is more similar to Zhuang posture where as South Mantis is indeed more similar to the so-called South Shaolin body structure.

The Yi Jin Jing/SLT was what he was talking about with the meridian stuff. That, I know nothing about, so its time for Hendrik to chime in!

See ya,

Re: Question

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]Hendrick wrote:
>>I have wait and wait and all researcher seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin… hakka… so if hakka.. southern mantis… how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood?<<

Can you explain how Nam ton long begins with Metal,(Lung/Colon), and SLT begins with the Liver/Gall Bladder (Wood)? [/B]

Jim you are right about the Head.

As for Lung or liver, some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Lung medirian. Some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Liver medirian.

When starting with Lung Medirian one focus direct to breathing function…when starting with Liver medirian one focus on relaxing the body…
even though all internal art has to be relax, breath… there are different signature.

Thus, I never belive people’s claim on Cheong Ng, Saam Bai Fut, or Sap Yat Sau… is equal to Yik Kam’s SLT (since cannot spoken for other lineage). There are lots of signatures in the DNA. One by one one can examine them. IMHO

So is SLT similar with YJJ? start with focusing the body to do breath work… or it is about relaxing the body so it flows like water or snake or harmony tide of ocean surf ? you decision.

Rene Ritchie. Diplomatic Corps candidate…hmmmm…grin.

…or is he the Neville Chamberlain of Wing Chun, working so hard to appease the purveyors of unsubstantiated “history”? :stuck_out_tongue:

Thus each story fills in the gaps and fleshes out the others ones, makes sense from senselessness, and respects (and leaves room for) all the traditions.

I see this story a little differently :wink:

Originally posted by [Censored]
I see this story a little differently :wink:

LOL, same here. I assUmed it was offered tongue in cheek.

Regards,

  • kj

Originally posted by kj
[B]

LOL, same here. I assUmed it was offered tongue in cheek.

Regards,

  • kj [/B]

I did too, hence my post. However, I thought maybe I was just totally daft as there was such a flurry about it after. Glad to know I am not the only one who thought so. WHEW. :smiley:

Vicky

Commend Rene for trying.

He has united beirenewingchunkuen
with nanrenewingchunkuen !

Grand Unification Theory

A modernist fallacy that us self-respecting post-modernists eschew, though agreeing it is one POV though only part of the whole shebang.

Marcel Proust was IMO a punk. Remembrance of Things Past was almost as boring as Foucault’s Pendulum, by Umberto Eco.

Interestingly enough, I sense a great disturbance in the Force. The fragmented pieces are moving rapidly toward greater oneness virtually in almost all areas of any post modernist’s life, i.e., globalism, internet connectivity, cross martial arts training, the search for intelligent lives and of course the Grand Unification theory in Science and soon the WC version of it. Maybe this is just a trendy thing. Get with the program, Anerlich! You’re too much of a rebel. Join them and together you can rebuild the WC empire. You know, I too often fell asleep reading halfway through MP’s punky novels.

Regards,

Sure- in the movement towards “unification” thousands are dying
in different parts of the world.(Just commenting on parts of Paul H’s last post. No startup of a political debate intended)

In such grand scale of organized humanity and collective efforts toward one vision, some pieces just have to be sacrificed if they stand in the way. Isn’t this what revolution all about?

“…Empty chairs at empty tables. Now my friends are dead and gone. Here they talked of revolution. Here it was they lit the flame. Here they sang about tomorrow. And tomorrow never came…Oh my friends, my friends, don’t ask me. What your sacrifice was for. Empty chairs at empty tables. Where my friends will sing no more. - Les Miserables”

Regards,

Jim Wrote"
Hey Phil!
>>I think Hendrik was referring to the Head position of South Mantis as it is indeed different from WCK. WCK head is more similar to Zhuang posture where as South Mantis is indeed more similar to the so-called South Shaolin body structure.<<

Hi Jim, I’m familiar with Juk Lum Tong Long,(Bamboo Forest Mantis), from my Hung Mun days.

Hendrick wrote:
>>Jim you are right about the head
As for Lung or liver, some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Lung medirian.<<

Can you elaborate how metal and wood are activated?