Yuen Kay San YGKYM

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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1

Lets look at difference between the YGKYM in Yip Man lineages and Yuen Kay San lineage. Why are they so differfent. Why does one have fairly straight chest and the other has a concave chest(Curl)? Whats the benefit of the concave chest. Is it okay to use both, Are do you feel one is inferior to other?

Concave: hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl, arched in : curving in.

Also YKS YGKYM is typically closer together. The Legs are almost touching. Where Yip man YGKYM looks like he standing in a horse stance only not actually sitting down in the stance???

Is one way superior to other?

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/photos/bruce%20lee%20snt.jpg

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg

Is there a purpose for a deeper stance? Or does the stance matter?

2

you forgot that YKS stance you are on the balls of your feet

the horse stance is in part to train muscles. when i train my knees are touching, i am on my toes, i am hunched and leaning forward like an old man about to die. as a result all weight is on my quads and my calves because i am on my toes

you lean forward, hunch, drop your shoulders for one because when you hunch and lean forward you lower your CG so that you can move around easier

you lean forward and hunch so that you can naturally put your elbows in the center (a lot harder if you are upright and your shouldrs are back)

you lean forward and hunch also so that your body is like a coiled spring. if your body is already extended then you cannot use those body parts to generate power as you strike.

3

are you on the balls of your feet or on the yung chuan acupoints?

4

balls of the feet

5

Yep the same stance my Sifu taught me. However we do not lean forward. Our chest is concaved and back appears hunched. But we are still straight. We do not lean back or forward. We stay straight with the head up. Not to far down. An we are slightly on our balls. An we slide the back foot when we front step.

Very interesting topic.

[QUOTE=Pacman;953197]you forgot that YKS stance you are on the balls of your feet

the horse stance is in part to train muscles. when i train my knees are touching, i am on my toes, i am hunched and leaning forward like an old man about to die. as a result all weight is on my quads and my calves because i am on my toes

you lean forward, hunch, drop your shoulders for one because when you hunch and lean forward you lower your CG so that you can move around easier

you lean forward and hunch so that you can naturally put your elbows in the center (a lot harder if you are upright and your shouldrs are back)

you lean forward and hunch also so that your body is like a coiled spring. if your body is already extended then you cannot use those body parts to generate power as you strike.[/QUOTE]

6

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;953178]Lets look at difference between the YGKYM in Yip Man lineages and Yuen Kay San lineage. Why are they so differfent. Why does one have fairly straight chest and the other has a concave chest(Curl)? Whats the benefit of the concave chest. Is it okay to use both, Are do you feel one is inferior to other?

Concave: hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl, arched in : curving in.

Also YKS YGKYM is typically closer together. The Legs are almost touching. Where Yip man YGKYM looks like he standing in a horse stance only not actually sitting down in the stance???

Is one way superior to other?

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/photos/bruce%20lee%20snt.jpg

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg

Is there a purpose for a deeper stance? Or does the stance matter?[/QUOTE]

From what i understand, the benefit of the concave chest is the fact that you have better reach and thus adds more length power to your strikes. Also, old school kung fu fighters would frequently target the chest because it is a killing shot. If your ches is concave your arms are further out to protect and your chest is further back and thus harder to reach.

Furthermore, the back and chest can now be used to further power your strikes considering it’s now in this “****ed” position. It’s the same principle used in the Hakka styles as well and the Fujian styles.

The draw back is reduced speed and as I understand, Yip Man’s style WC is centered around speed and therefore would have no need for the concave chest as it sacrifices one for the other. That is not to say that WC in general doesnt use this type of Chest/Back power but it is not as exaggerated and thus not as powerful.

A deeper stance is mainly used for strength and power training. In actual fighting you generally wouldn’t usethe same low stance to fight with. Unless of course one was lowering oneself in order to use the tension to spring up/forward and power up the strikes. Once again, this is used in the Hakka/Fujian styles for this very purpose.

7

[QUOTE=ittokaos;953321]From what i understand, the benefit of the concave chest is the fact that you have better reach and thus adds more length power to your strikes. Also, old school kung fu fighters would frequently target the chest because it is a killing shot. If your ches is concave your arms are further out to protect and your chest is further back and thus harder to reach.

Furthermore, the back and chest can now be used to further power your strikes considering it’s now in this “****ed” position. It’s the same principle used in the Hakka styles as well and the Fujian styles.

The draw back is reduced speed and as I understand, Yip Man’s style WC is centered around speed and therefore would have no need for the concave chest as it sacrifices one for the other. That is not to say that WC in general doesnt use this type of Chest/Back power but it is not as exaggerated and thus not as powerful.

A deeper stance is mainly used for strength and power training. In actual fighting you generally wouldn’t usethe same low stance to fight with. Unless of course one was lowering oneself in order to use the tension to spring up/forward and power up the strikes. Once again, this is used in the Hakka/Fujian styles for this very purpose.[/QUOTE]

why would hunched be slower?

we learned to fight just as low…the only difference is that when we are in the outer range we dont stand pigeon toed for mobility sake…but we take the principle of being low, hunched, coiled into practice when fighitng

8

Being hunched(which is bad but I know what you are saying :)) is not slower by itself but if you are using it to create power it is a slight slow down as opposed to simply striking from your position. You would have to change your position to strike and while more power is added, the the overall combo slows down if only slightly. That is one of the reason that wing chun fights the way that it does. It is one of the few styles that doesnt change it’s positon(that much) when fighting and thus never loses it’s speed. Also, by having your back straight you have the option of using either the back or chest in your power issuing. By “hunching” you can really use the chest but I suppose it depens on how much you are hunched.

That is not to say that you cant be fast while using this type of power generation but the speed comes from the power and unless the power is also used to reload the speed would be cut down on the reload. It is by far a more difficult way to train but the benefits are great.

9

[QUOTE=ittokaos;953331]Being hunched(which is bad but I know what you are saying :)) is not slower by itself but if you are using it to create power it is a slight slow down as opposed to simply striking from your position. You would have to change your position to strike and while more power is added, the the overall combo slows down if only slightly. That is one of the reason that wing chun fights the way that it does. It is one of the few styles that doesnt change it’s positon(that much) when fighting and thus never loses it’s speed. Also, by having your back straight you have the option of using either the back or chest in your power issuing. By “hunching” you can really use the chest but I suppose it depens on how much you are hunched.

That is not to say that you cant be fast while using this type of power generation but the speed comes from the power and unless the power is also used to reload the speed would be cut down on the reload. It is by far a more difficult way to train but the benefits are great.[/QUOTE]

i kind of see what you are saying.

how do you use your chest or back to generate power, when your torso is straight?

10

The shoulder girdle and pelvic girdle are even - there is a snapping of the pelvis and a thrust forward of the chest when the body is held straight.

Alan wrote an article of a basic training exercise I teach with the medicine ball. You can see the ilustration in the article:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

Better yet, try it with a 15 or 20 lb medicine ball. Try it hunchbacked, then try it with straight body and report back to us.

Hunchback training is fine if you want to look like Quasimodo. It messes up the alignment of the internal organs, is poor for the spine, and bad for your breathing, and health. You can talk to orthopedic doctors, chiropractors or acupuncturists about this. In yogic and qi gong traditions poor posture is also incorrectly misaligning the chakras, calling for disharmony between the emotions, and in mental and spritual development.

I am not sure if Sum Nung taught it incorrectly, or whether people interpreted it wrong. I am also of YKS lineage, and have great respect for the lineage, but one has to look at YJKYM from a point of view of health, alignment and martial context.

WCK should not make you look like a gnome. :slight_smile: If Wing Chun or Ng Mui did make an art like WCK, would they want to look like a dude wasted on opium? Perhaps that is where the posture comes from.

11

interesting read about the pelvic thrust. in SN WC we generate power through pivoting and extension of back and shoulders. power is transferred efficiently though alignment of bones.

i cant speak from a chinese medicine perspective except that i have heard of “sunken chest and shoulders” in tai chi training as well and that my teacher is very knowledgeable from a chinese medical perspective and into longevity and internal organ health (crazy about the kidneys). he is very cautious about not doing anything adverse healthwise.

SN learned from YKS directly so it would be surprising if he misunderstood something so fundamental.

when i trained with SN on a few occasions he kept telling me to hunch more and more and to get lower and lower.

i dont mind looking like quasimoto or an opium addict when fighting. id rather look like that then dry hump my opponent with pelvic thrusts

[QUOTE=chusauli;953339]The shoulder girdle and pelvic girdle are even - there is a snapping of the pelvis and a thrust forward of the chest when the body is held straight.

Alan wrote an article of a basic training exercise I teach with the medicine ball. You can see the ilustration in the article:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

Better yet, try it with a 15 or 20 lb medicine ball. Try it hunchbacked, then try it with straight body and report back to us.

Hunchback training is fine if you want to look like Quasimodo. It messes up the alignment of the internal organs, is poor for the spine, and bad for your breathing, and health. You can talk to orthopedic doctors, chiropractors or acupuncturists about this. In yogic and qi gong traditions poor posture is also incorrectly misaligning the chakras, calling for disharmony between the emotions, and in mental and spritual development.

I am not sure if Sum Nung taught it incorrectly, or whether people interpreted it wrong. I am also of YKS lineage, and have great respect for the lineage, but one has to look at YJKYM from a point of view of health, alignment and martial context.

WCK should not make you look like a gnome. :slight_smile: If Wing Chun or Ng Mui did make an art like WCK, would they want to look like a dude wasted on opium? Perhaps that is where the posture comes from.[/QUOTE]

12

I know this thread has the topic of YKSWC, but I would just like to comment on the fact that there are generally other influences in people’s WC. I, for one, also like somewhat of a boxing frame. I also have a Kenpo Karateish background and a (limited) TWC background. When I finally get around to training Judo, it will influence the way I perform my WC.

When I see hunch/concave Wing Chun, it reminds me of two other arts: White Crane Kung-Fu and White Brow. Both generate a lot of power through coiling while striking. I can see how this could directly influence Wing Chun.

Check out Martin: http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/videos/dd_jiandan_all.avi

At around 1:00, it looks very reminiscent of Po Pai Jeung. If you watch closely, you’ll see his back moving. In White Brow, there is even more hunching of the back for explosive power. My good martial arts friend of 15 years studied White Brow. Could never get one of his rings off his finger. During one of the forms, he shot his ring clear across the room. LOL

Best,
K

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[QUOTE=Pacman;953360]interesting read about the pelvic thrust. in SN WC we generate power through pivoting and extension of back and shoulders. power is transferred efficiently though alignment of bones.

i cant speak from a chinese medicine perspective except that i have heard of “sunken chest and shoulders” in tai chi training as well and that my teacher is very knowledgeable from a chinese medical perspective and into longevity and internal organ health (crazy about the kidneys). he is very cautious about not doing anything adverse healthwise.

SN learned from YKS directly so it would be surprising if he misunderstood something so fundamental.

when i trained with SN on a few occasions he kept telling me to hunch more and more and to get lower and lower.

i dont mind looking like quasimoto or an opium addict when fighting. id rather look like that then dry hump my opponent with pelvic thrusts[/QUOTE]

The Daoists have spoken of alignment of the 3 Dantian for centuries. When the chest is hollow in SN WCK and Tai Ji, is that not breaking that principle? Perhaps a study of anatomy or physiology is needed? Remember in Chinese Medicine, the Kidneys communicate with the other 4 major organs: Heart, Spleen, Lungs, Liver. Please look into that. It is not just the Kidneys. Your posture needs to be upright so that the internal organs can receive proper circulation of energy and blood. Being hunched over obstructs that.

I enjoy this conversation, as I have thought about this for many years and practiced both ways of hunch back and non hunchback.

I am not saying SN learned anything wrong, perhaps the difference is in interpretation?

The idea is not to dry hump an opponent, the idea is to f — up the opponent! LOL! And to issue this force is the result of the alignment. At any rate, it explains the reasons for both forms of slouch or straight. I don’t wish to invalidate Yuen Kay Shan or Sum Nung WCK, as I am part of the family. Who’s to say that YKS did not have some unusual kyphosis as he aged/ailed and taught the young SN? The very tall Moy Yat (6’ 2") was known to have kyphosis as he copied the very short Yip Man (5’ 0")…many in that lineage are also slightly hunchbacked…

What I will say is the way I use power, you do not need to pivot nor extend your back/shoulders. You are the using localized power of back and shoulders, instead of power from the body, horse and waist/low back. WCK states “Yiu, Shen, Ma Lik” - “Waist, Torso, Horse Power”.

Thank you for your observations Pacman.

Best regards,

14

[QUOTE=chusauli;953388]The Daoists have spoken of alignment of the 3 Dantian for centuries. When the chest is hollow in SN WCK and Tai Ji, is that not breaking that principle? Perhaps a study of anatomy or physiology is needed? [/quote]

i cant say. like i said i do not know much of Chinese medicine, but the fact that this posture is present in other soft styles, very conscious of chi development, gives support for its validity in so much as that it at least does not violate any Taoist teachings. Perhaps a brush up of Chinese medicine is needed?

You are the using localized power of back and shoulders, instead of power from the body, horse and waist/low back

we are using everything. localized back shoulders, waist, body alignment, and legs. like in tai chi, the goal is full body coordination

15

i had my suspicions about bagua, so i did a quick google search and found this:

http://pakuachangjournal.com/circleWalk.php?page=3

In practice, it is necessary to pay attention to these important details:
…
…
…

  1. The back is rounded yet straight and erect while the chest is held in a hollow.
    …
    …
    …
    The Ba Gua Zhang classics say “Hollow the chest, suspend the crown, and sink the waist.”
16

OK,

enough to argue about doing this way and that way.

What All IMA artists does after mastering the basic of their art ; doesnt even have to think and they drop into that state.

Yes, State. Think means dont know. Yes, Drop in. Just let go and it is in that alignement.

So if you know that proper state all IMA drop into. Dont answer the following if you dont know but needs to think because you will misleading yourself and others.

How does it feel? I careless what you do or how you going to clamp your hip…etc. How does it feel when it is proper.

also, to do YJKYM in the soft way one needs to loosen up the whole body. and how do one loosen up one’s hip? how do one loosen up one’s waist? what is hip what is waist? how is that related to the slight concave in the butt? all these details. to be real honest, if you cant handle these above in details you dont have it. Thus, dont even mention about soft or IMA.

17

No argument, just discussion.

What I said about the Kidneys and relationship to the other organs is Chinese Medicine. That is why the 3 dan tian are aligned when straight.

As for Ba Gua being hollow chested, I will say that it shares issues with Tai Ji and Xing Yi as well. These rounded shouldered versions are results of embracing the Dan Tian and raising the Kua to feel empowered. In one version of Gong Bao Tian’s Ba Gua, the chest is held straight, open…no hunchback or hollow chest. That is the minority, but it has enormous ramifications…Ba Gua is not Xing Yi, nor Tai Ji, although many people play Tai Ji Ba Gua and Xing Yi Ba Gua. But that’s an issue for another discussion forum.

Hendrik is very correct in getting into the “state”, when you touch, the body is automatically aligned. In advanced stages, you let go of the clinging to form. The form was for you to develop good habits and expedient. The outward shape is negligible later - the question is if the 6 harmonies are coordinated. We cannot leave that.

Even at times, Hawkins Cheung stood with toes outward, yet he had body structure. I felt Hendrik’s stance at one time was too narrow, now I feel it is just right. My own stance is not a stance anymore, just a position; and any position is good, as long as one gets it correctly. Defining “Correctly” will vary.

My structure tests talked about a test for feeling energy and being aligned.

All is fine if you can use it. Its all good.

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Real question. Are people that train YKS wing chun different in any physical way from all other humans?

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Not at all.

I would say YKS is very similar to the system Yip Man taught in Futshan and to Leung Sheung…

20

Robert,

As we get older we all changes how to express the art our way isnt it?