Rise/Sink/Open/Close

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Paul,

catch me sometime, I’m not terribly good at it, but I can show you, in part because I’m not very good and my motions are still quite large. From having met Gary and spent a good bit of time trading ideas with Ernie, I’m **** positive he’s doing, on some level, these actions. My bet is that they look more like the first case 'cos he’s been doing them so long he’s got them tight to the point of invisibility.

Jim,

I think 1). is a developmental phase to get to 2)., and what 2). looks like after you’ve gone from physical motion in the relevant kinetic chain to simple mental activation (i.e. overt and covert chan ssu jin in chen vs. yang taiji).

My present training heirarchy (order in which I think stuff is learned). 5) and 6) is what I play with a lot in solo practice these days, but haven’t connected into my partner work yet. 1-4 I’m pretty clear on and use, but 5) and 6) are murky with flashes of clarity.

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and softer
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

Later,

Andrew

22

Thanks, James,Hendrik, Alan, and Andrew. Sure when I see you again I love to see what you do, Andrew.

Regards,
PH

23

My point of view sees those different motions, and how through stable structures and moving structures these directional energies can be applied.

I also know that they are not range dependent. I have seen them in some WCK families and since we all come from Southern China I see them in other systems as well. ----------

If one be able to “see” through physical body into energy body.
A quick scan will know how the energy differences. streching until it is too thin, or stay in balace and send, or sits there looks balance but the resultant force is in total mis-alignment…

Ready for a true paradigm shift?

ONE DOESNT APPLY ENERGY. ONE IS THE ENERGY DISTRIBUTION AND FLOW. AND ENERGY SELDOM COMES PURE IN A SINGLE POLE, DIRECTION OR VECTOR.

As for the families that it is no longer prescient then it is apparent the information was lost in translations and personal expressions. --------

As soon as SLT is there nothing lost.
All family from Red Boat has it there. It is not about that look different movement it is about that energy body within it.

Thus, SLT must not be substitude or replace or make equavalent to the set such as Iron Wire or Fakuen … ect. Otherwise, it is real Lost.

Those who did those equavalent doesnt understand the energy body of SLT.

It is not that difficult to proof this, get an advance attain master of Yee Chuan, or TaiJi..who is direct decendent of the founders. from BeiJing, ask thier second opinion on the energy body type.

It is similar to look at a disease, get the experience doctors second opinion.

If one look at a picture of old timer such as Gm Yip Man, one can “see” the tranquil, silence, balance. look at those pictures in todays books or article, if one look with curiousity without agenda to proof this or claim who is the best, just pure curious, the secret is infront of one’s eyes.

“One could describe but would one understand if described to” If I said that these actions Are tan, gum, biu, paak one would probably disagree but if I were to describe the actions and angling of these actions could one see what was TRULY being said.

Fortune for to day-Face to face lurning will enlighten ones mind. But hand to hand training with inhance ones skill. ---------

Good fair question!

Without truely in San Jose, one will not be able to describe the road’s details. But with a San Jose map, all travellers can find the place one wants to go without need a tour guide. with GPS one even amaze..

One doesnt need enlightent mind, one only need training in intuitition.

Line and angling are great for beginers. but they can become a big hindarance when progress into advance is needed.

ONE DOESNT APPLY ENERGY. ONE IS THE ENERGY DISTRIBUTION AND FLOW. AND ENERGY SELDOM COMES PURE IN A SINGLE POLE, DIRECTION OR VECTOR.

24

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Thanks, James,Hendrik, Alan, and Andrew. Sure when I see you again I love to see what you do, Andrew.

Regards,
PH [/B]

The trouble / fun of it is, if one doent know about reading into energy body, one will not see. :smiley:

Thus, I am going to Maui. to swim and waving the wave like a turtle .

Not those karate chop ninja turtle . but WXZ type of turtle in Maui… :smiley:

Jim, can a turtle eat tuna while swiming? check for that WXZ turtle… :smiley:

25

It’s true, Hendrik! Phil Collins somehow got this unbearable lightness of feelings/seeing: “Take a good look at me now…nothing but empty space.” Good luck in Maui. Aloha!

26

Have to disagree with Hendrik somewhat…

Angling and redirecting the opponent’s force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent’s body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)…

But when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - in addition to his arms…(ie. - he’s grabbing you and attempting a more or less straight ahead chest-to-chest push leading to a takedown, for example)…

then the internal rooting of energy - using the whole body and the ground to generate power through the legs on upward…etc…
(without trying to use angling and redirection - since your opponent is too close and too skillful for that)…

MAKES MUCH SENSE.

And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance…is always a possibility as well.

27

By the way, AndrewS…

I liked your post about the 6 different phases you’ve been working on.

28

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Have to disagree with Hendrik somewhat…

Angling and redirecting the opponent’s force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent’s body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)…

[/B]

Victor,

I certainly agree with you on this one. Thus, it is better then those who dont know what to do with thier arm…ect. That’s the beauty of it.

29

Originally posted by PaulH
It’s true, Hendrik! Phil Collins somehow got this unbearable lightness of feelings/seeing: “Take a good look at me now…nothing but empty space.” Good luck in Maui. Aloha!

Paul,

Thanks.

You give me a great insperation on which song to choose for my next article in wck.com. thanks.

30

Hello Andrew!

Jim,

I think 1). is a developmental phase to get to 2)., and what 2). looks like after you’ve gone from physical motion in the relevant kinetic chain to simple mental activation (i.e. overt and covert chan ssu jin in chen vs. yang taiji).

My present training heirarchy (order in which I think stuff is learned). 5) and 6) is what I play with a lot in solo practice these days, but haven’t connected into my partner work yet. 1-4 I’m pretty clear on and use, but 5) and 6) are murky with flashes of clarity.

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and softer
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

This is an excellent post! All important info.. Maybe we should
start a new thread on these items!

Regards,

31

Jim,

Don’t mind me! I’m cool to any new ideas directly or indirectly relevant to this thread! Thanks for that helpful summary of the two positions on your post! I used to train in your 1st point and now more of your 2nd! Funny how things go!

Regards,
PH

32

Jim,

Don’t mind me!

Or me!

I’m cool to any new ideas directly or indirectly relevant to this thread!

Me too!

Thanks for that helpful summary of the two positions on your post! I used to train in your 1st point and now more of your 2nd! Funny how things go!

We all share and I am the same as you. Three years ago I made the changes in the internal mechanics and am still changing. It started for me when I was discipled into the Koo Lo family but I can also say that Hendrik has helped me a lot so fair credit to him to! Knowledge is a journey and I can see we are just starting to scratch the surface.

Mind if I ask what difference your feel in your body/wc?

Regards,

33

Jim,

From a strictly balance viewpoint, it is not too good if you are low. When someone push you you have no place to go whereas you can sink, rise or move back and forth to neutralize incoming forces from a more neutral stance. This is really my chief reason. I find greater relaxation as a nice byproduct. Hendrik influenced me quite a bit too!

Regards,
PH

34

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the credit.
as soon as everyone grow , remember the ancestors dont worried about the name hendrik. without ancestors and friends we cant make it.
for we all walk the path and work together to help each others. We all WCners.

on

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and soft
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

For me these all are great to build up one’s intuition, because you pay attention and curious how things work.. great.

thus, i have heard from experience guy,
one day when you “see” the " reality".
it will not be what you expected.
it is like suddently you saw the great elephant but it resemberant none of its part. even you never see the elephant before but the first sight you see it. you know that’s it, you have reach home, sure there are still level’s to climp…work to be done, but you “know” that is what you are looking for.

When you list these 6, you didnt see it yet. and dont expect it will be those spiral…or …ect, might be might not be… but without this six you will not see it.

great stuffs

if there is a few keys to start the slt engine. the first one is about curiosity, the second will be take everything a part.

sure one might create a mess for oneself for next 20 years but without losing in the mess, pay attention to the small parts… one always is just a copy cat without one’s style. even in wck, one has one’s style or signature… as I have heard

Just some thought

35

Hey Hendrick,

all this stuff is part of the internal mechanics- cool to take apart and fiddle with, applicable in ‘treating the other guy like the wooden dummy’.

I’ve headed down a hundred dead ends, found stuff too early and too late while I’ve been looking.

Here’s a question- when you interact with another body, do you ‘treat them like the wooden dummy’, or (ok this is gonna sound weird) perceive a mutual CoG, localize your consciousness there and manipulate that shared CoG? I’m thinking about certain types of throws where this happens, and extrapolating to general continuous connection. I think this is a lot of what Ueshiba was talking about. . .

Later,

Andrew

36

here is what they say about open/close/rise/sink in Qigong context:

II. Rising and lowering with openings and closings

    Stand with feet about one leg's length apart with arms hanging down on both sides. Then hold hands up in front of your chest. Hold them apart about shoulders' width. When inhaling imagine there is an energy field between the hands and the energy pushes the hands apart. Bend the knees to lower the stance. When exhaling imagine that the energy field collapses and the hands go back to the original position (down on the sides) and straighten the legs. Repeat three times.

Next take one step forward. Hold the hands up in front of your chest a shoulders’ width apart. When inhaling imagine there is an energy field between the hands and the energy pushes the hands apart. When exhaling imagine that the energy field collapses; drop the hands and bend the knees. Repeat three times.

http://alternativehealing.org/guolin_qigong_detail.htm

37

Hi Andrews,

I’ve headed down a hundred dead ends, found stuff too early and too late while I’ve been looking. -----A

Great that is where mastering is from—by screw up.

Here’s a question- when you interact with another body, do you ‘treat them like the wooden dummy’, or (ok this is gonna sound weird) perceive a mutual CoG, localize your consciousness there and manipulate that shared CoG? -----A

That depend on my age :smiley:
It varies from when I am 20, 30, 40..

You actually post a very inteligent question but may be you want to find out, in a real situation such as while you are driving in the high way with 65miles/hour speed, what do your intuition tell you, is other car a car or something else? how do you treat other car?

if your mind fill with Dummy, Straw man., cog… what if you meet Sexy Diaz trying to attacking you? will those pre-condition inteligent “model” work? or these pre-condition inteligent model become an agenda you want to force that blocking you to see the obvious and doing what is proper?

same thing, what will a pre-condition mind / idea do for you while you are driving? does that pre-condition mind tell you the reality or it is just your model which might not reflex reality? Check it out.

I’m thinking about certain types of throws where this happens, and extrapolating to general continuous connection. I think this is a lot of what Ueshiba was talking about. . . ----A

treating has two components here, 1, what do one “see” 2, what do one going to do about it.

imo,

1, seeing others “as they are”–without exgegerate(sp) or coloring by my own perspective or emotion or others agressiveness or warmness or sexyness…,( be it facing a dog or sexy Diaz or …). i dont think" if I can, i “see”.

2, I let him show me what it is and what it wants to do, and how is it related to balance . Do that balancing act.

But ofcause, this “dont thinking” and response spontaneous has to based on the development and attainment of the energy understanding / handling capability / balancing.

the more one capable to handle energy the more one will be able to accept things as it is and response spontaneously -----up to a point there is no different between an attacker or a woodern dummy or oneself.

do what it needs to be done for balancing. even if that is given Diaz a freindly tap on her shoulder which has nothing to do with physical cog or woodern dummy. but balance her emotion.

So, you ask me either or. I reply you dont pre-condition otherwise it wont flow naturally. Osense said the art of peace is to fullfil what is lacking.

And non preconditioning is zen. is it not?

Just some wacky thoughts

38

AndrewS:

This is something I’ve sometimes worked with - similar to (but slightly different) from what you said in your last post…

Tell me what you think ? :

  1. Train oneself to ALWAYS be in touch with your own CoG - first consciously - then unconsciously…both in stillness (ie.- during SLT), and in movement, (ie.- during Chum Kiu)…then…

  2. Learn how to immediately locate your opponent’s CoG…(for example - like you said - while interacting with another body in a possible throwing situation)…then…

  3. Immediately identify where the potential weakness is in HIS CoG (based upon how he’s standing - how he’s balanced - or NOT balanced, and how he’s angled vis-a-vis yourself)…then…

  4. Take advantage of the weakness and throw him - sweep him…whatever.

At the advanced stages of this kind of thing a momentary link between your CoG - and his CoG - and his WEAK spot , (or his POTENTIAL weak spot) will reveal itself to you (first consciously - then unconsciously)- and you will instantly unbalance him with a throw or whatever…

39

A Proposal

Since we discuss the open, close… energy body…,
now if we carry this to one step further techically.

Victor has a great post:

Angling and redirecting the opponent’s force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent’s body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)…

But when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - …

then the internal rooting of energy - using the whole body and the ground to generate power through the legs on upward…etc…
(without trying to use angling and redirection - since your opponent is too close and too skillful for that)…

MAKES MUCH SENSE.

And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance…is always a possibility as well.

If one investigate the concept of 5 array : BaiJong, intercept, sinking, pursue, and recovery. This 5 array stratergy is great dealing with limbs type of art. If one look at the implementation of the 5 phases, one will see, it is great for limb distance counter/attact but not deep penetration.

IMHO,
If presume one has attained the internal energy handling capability as those ancestors in red boat. Not the primarily dealing with his limbs type of wck art.
Then, “Come retain , goes send back, …” is adequate.

Why so?

1, There no need for Baijong or recovery steps because every steps is already within balance or Zhong which is ready for any engage.

2, one step of energy “sending” can consist of intercept, sinking, and pursue steps . using the energy flow/send and the shape of physical structure supporting that energy type to intercept, sinking, and deep penetrate in one step (deep penetration instead of pursue. )

Ie. similar to the grapper " when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - in addition to his arms…(ie. - he’s grabbing you and attempting a more or less straight ahead chest-to-chest push leading to a take down, for example)…And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance…is always a possibility as well."

as it said, "come retain, goes send back, using silence to subdue action. " (silence means Zhong here.) just one spontaneous response from the silence, not 5 steps.. if one has that energy body type.

Thus, I have never convince the WCK using the 5 steps / array is the original of the WCK from the red boat. This is because it doesnt address the already mature issues , deep penetration in one step (which red boat wck did), which Chinese martial arts as early as Ming Dynasty has to faced — namely, one fight wrestle .. too. I have post the view of Ming Martial art reform segment translation, on comination of Eagle craw/lock, wresting, … on earlier post to Victor.

For illustration to support my point from the concept of different authors.
To ‘see’ the differences of the energy body of the two type of art. the shaolin WC which use the 5 arry and the Red boat WC.

Check out the WCK book, by DR Leung Ting, page 27, there is a drawing on Leung Jan and Money Changer Wah. (Look at how deep the penetration or taking over other’s teritory.)

In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42.

Make your own conclusion from what you see above.
Nothing good or bad just different.

I might be the number one coocoo and totally wrong, for there exist no such internal energy. that always possible. Just human.

But what if it exist?

Again, I post strongly my believe, SLT doesnt equavalent from Fakuen to Iron Wire, dont modified it, because that might be our last chance to tap this energy. I might be right, I might be the number one BSter. just human.

Just some technical thoughts.

40

As a different topic,

IMHO, any primarily dealing with limb only art will not sustain Grapper well.

Gracie is right, it always end up in ground.

Just some thought