Pei Mei: sinking power for small persons

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hello,

While wasting minues of my life reading another mindless flame-up on this forum, I did see an issue that maybe some fellow Pak Mei practitioners could enlighten me with.

Understanding that sinking power on bridging technic is but one technic among many in Pei Mei, I wish to know if any person here has any EXPERIENCE with this technic against taller persons.

I am rather tall and hence have no difficulty with this technic which I rather like. However some shorter people, often women but not always, have difficulty with it.

Is it the case to say that this technic is really only possible, during bridging phase and along center line, against someone equal height or smaller?

I do imagine very well using “local” sinking power and being shorter then the other person, against an arm on the outside for instance, and then appying a movement from 18 frictions form or Kow Peuw Toi for example. In these cases the local sinking only serves to “slingshot” the followup movement.

Thank you for your contributions.

(As a side note someone querried about 5 animals in Wing Shun in Vietnam. A good web site for this: www.shaolinwingchun.com
However I am not sure all is translated into English.)

EAZ

2

Thanx for the link EAZ. I didn’t ask for it, but i checked it out anyway. Shaolin Wing Chun has a cool factor of 10. The whole site is worth checking out. That Masters Sifu was a badass too (–He made a smoking pipe out of a highway robbers clavicle after he killed him :cool:–). The style looks sorta like a mix between Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin. In any event it looks legit, its just different from the norm. Who knows. It could be the original form of Wing Chun. I wonder how long it takes to learn though.

3

Vertically Challenged.

Being on the shorter side of the scale does present problems in using sinking power at a distance. Almost everyone at my kwoon is taller than I am. In order to use sinking power or any other technique with effectiveness I really need to close the gap and get as close to my opponent as possible. Actually sinking combined with intelligent side stepping footwork is beneficial by providing a moving target as opposed to a “sitting duck”. Once in, any Pak Mei technique is effective because a taller opponent will not be able to generate power and accuracy effectively at the same time.:cool:

4

Sinking Power

Hi EAZ,
Nice to see you again. Kung Fu Online can indeed be a test of your “internal strength” <grin>.

At just under 6 foot tall, I am tall against the Chinese, but average against the round eyes.

To me, sinking power is used in the way you mentioned quite effectively, that is as a “heavy arm” that binds or traps the opponents arm(s), and then recoils into a strike.

I find that shorter skilled opponents however sometimes can drop lower as a defense, and sometimes evade, especially other pak mei players,who know the drill. They can use the power generated by your sinking to start a circular attack back around if you hesitate, or put too much into it.

Also, perhaps not exactly the same, but certainly related, and certainly useful against taller opponents, sinking power can be used to go under an opponents guard, perhaps with Sak Choi (Straight Punch?), or Seep Choi.

The opponent thinks the punch will come into the guard, but in the execution, the maximum strength is generated by swallowing the belly and dropping into that “low stance” we’ve previously discussed in some detail.

Sinking is used to generate extra power here, as opposed to bridging. In essence, punching straight through any defense, or going under any defense with a ferocious straight-on attack to solar plexus or lower abdominal targets. Counter attack is a moot point.

Likewise, a dropping soi que attack to the inside of the thigh or knee is suprisingly effective, especially followed up by a rising strike…if you are nimble enough…

Sinking power helps me to balance from over committment in powerful forward strikes, giving more root to the stance and allowing more faht Ging.

As a tall player, do you go under the defense of shorter opponents often?

5

Good Yum Cha

Well put Yum Cha!! I actually have used the sort of maneuvers you have mentioned, not against Pak Mei brothers but against Wing Chun cousins. Circular attacks and side stepping work well with sinking to side step wing Chun (as far as my experience is concerned). Though it would appear limited against CLF practioners because they use lots of circular movement from what I have seen. So to most other systems I would use Scared Hands coupled with sinking to close the gap. :cool:

6

WOW

Sorry yum cha i have to disagree with almost everything you have said here!:frowning:

YC
“Also, perhaps not exactly the same, but certainly related, and certainly useful against taller opponents, sinking power can be used to go under an opponents guard, perhaps with Sak Choi (Straight Punch?), or Seep Choi.”

This will get you hurt IMHO seip sau/kuil is more of a cutting and using of angles to break,crush and sink the opponents guard down. ykm has a move called jeet sau which is a downwards angle punch that attacks the lower upper gates of the body, whilst the opponent has his middle or upper gates closed off as he attacks. But i wouldn’t try and go under a guard with a sut choy, which will be easily countered in one single move. :rolleyes:

If the opponent is taller use an entry technique that will bring his elbows lower than yours, then you can control him. Remember you have lifting, swallowing, and spitting to use also. Sinking is only one power, if you can’t use it at that moment then use another.

Y.C.

“Sinking is used to generate extra power here, as opposed to bridging. In essence, punching straight through any defense, or going under any defense with a ferocious straight-on attack to solar plexus or lower abdominal targets. Counter attack is a moot point.”

Sorry I have to disagree here also. Do you know the bak mei principle of hands? When one hand strikes the other follows, when one hand deflects the other attacks!

Sorry Yum Cha for answering you post with such negativity on New Years day. But I think you need to re-access your hand theories.

Sui Fuw,

You are very knowledgeable. I can tell by your post. :slight_smile:

7

Proof in the pudding

How tall are you F.t compared to Y.C?

If what is Y.C is talking about is a load of cack, what and when was the divergence?

The proof is always in the pudding!!! not lip service.

When one hand strikes the other follows- not neccesarilly!

8

cloud one

i dont understand your question, i answered his post!

Divergence from his post or from his past, what are you trying to ask?:confused:

can you give me a better answer for my hand theories about both hands? anything would be great, why would one hand be doing nothing? i have a different way of thought to you on yum cha’s post.

im interested in hearing your views on his post?

im about 5’7 i think im smaller than him! what do you say yum cha?

happy new year

:slight_smile:

9

One at a time!

I believe timing has a lot to do with your theory.

why ‘jek bo’ first then ‘gow bo tyui’ then ‘sip bat mor’?

What has this got to do with this thread?

Which is easier to learn?

come on Yum and F.t what are your insights to this?

Sui fuw what is your experiences with Kung Fu road?

BtW have a very happy and enlighting ‘gwai lo’ New Year.

10

Cloud

If you don’t mind…

What is your experience with Kung Fu ROAD? Inquiring minds wanna know!

Also, what does Kung Fu mean to you?

Thanks in advance.

Sifu - Very nice!:wink: Gave me lots to think about, as you always do. Thanks!

Sui-Fuw - What up bro! Hows everything? I plead the 5th.lol

Happy gweilo new year fellas!

Buby

11

cloud one

Let’s be fair, I answered your question, why not give us an answer?

Timing is the key to all skills!

:slight_smile:

12

Hmmmmmm…

No offense taken FT,

There are many techniques, many ways to generate an attack, I’m just talking about one particular type, not the only type, just a principle.

Let me try to be more clearspoken… I’d be really surprised if you guys didn’t agreee with me on fundamentals

Ton Tow, Chum Fau, each half has the other half. The question was about generating sinking power, half of a whole.

Simple, forget the actual technique, or where it comes in a combination. We’re just talking about types of sinking power and the original question concerned attacking taller opponents.

I’m not saying that I would regularly try to go under someones guard, but it is an option, expecially if the opponent was moving upward, and if you have solid fung ahn choi.

Every move has a counter. Sak Choi can turn into a bui ji by in turn floating. You have to play it in context against a practical opponent.

The point is, by dropping your center of gravity and striking forward, you can issue more strength into the blow. The textbook execution from Jik Bo.

Consider it a principle distinct from the “Heavy arm” sinking power that bridges or traps, like soi que.

What I crudely write as “seep choi” is an attack with the forearm across the body, straight out. Striking at the spleen, just below the ribs, or the solar plexus. Often applied after ducking under a head high attack, in VERY close, head butt range.

I can understand FT saying they don’t have the same concept, this is in the area where YKM and PM have different interpretations, but the Hakka boys? Or am I just misunderstanding? Do you have heavy overwhelming attacks as well as the deft boxing? What are your big tiger moves?

I have to admit though, the dropping to the ground leg strikes do come by way of SPM. Its in Ng Yang, but it’s more popular in SPM I believe.

Happy New Year everybody.

13

hmmm…²

Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.

It does specifically concern bridging with sinking power across center line by small person, and not the rest of TTFC concept.

Yum Cha: Thank you I will try your suggestion out on Friday at next practice. I do get the feeling though that shorter people cannot do this part of the TTFC principle as bridging technic, except as suggested by LiLiong (I think) by going outside and taking one arm out. Yet even this seems a bit ilusory because the time it takes you to go around, to get an angle, and then apply the sinking power to the bridge appears to long (At least this is how I understand his comment).

I am enclined to think that FT is right in saying that to apply sinking power along center line you must get opponent elbows below yours first (hence the advantage to being tall). Not an easy thing to do against a skilled opponent who keeps his guard.

And usually if an opponent drops his guard (to block a low kick or fake low punch) you just go straight into the window created, with whatever principle of power you deem appropriate. Many variants.

EAZ

14

Yum Cha

Thanks for your understanding if I do come across rude and arrogant. My post and my thoughts are not against you or anyone else.

As for differences, Yau Kung Mun and bak mei really are the same. Theories and principles should apply the same depending on the body type of the practitioner as well as what type of power generation they are best at.

What do you think of people that are good at just tun tou and not fou chum?

Do you think you have learned these properly or are you better at just a couple of them?

I’ve noticed at one of your training session on Saturday, that you guys tun/swallow a lot. Is there a reason?

15

gouhuen

Thats the whole point here, is getting chum ging useful you have to get inside and yum cha’s theory in my book would have been scary.

once your in close YES chum the MOFO..HEHEHE:D

16

Sui Fuw

Originally posted by sui-fuw

who you calling boy,you old f@rt on crack,whats your real question?is it,could a person like myself hanle bigger overwelmiing men like you?
with what and how you write,you’ll be asleep before the answer and when you wake up you’ll still not know the answer:D
chum cannot survive alone at any cost.why yum cha?:stuck_out_tongue:

Just a second while I dust off my reading glasses, and roll my chair closer to light so I can see the email my nurse printed out…ok, that’s better…

My question was not if a little guy could beat a big guy, but if you hakka stylists used a sinking power other than in bridging?

And, what you considered your big tiger moves?

“Who you calling boy?” Never heard that from a Chinaman before…perhaps a Chinese American?

Chum cannot survive alone without it’s brother, or its cousins. Its a family thing, but you know that, right?

:smiley:

17

Re: Yum Cha

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
[B]As for differences, Yau Kung Mun and bak mei really are the same. Theories and principles should apply the same depending on the body type of the practitioner as well as what type of power generation they are best at.

What do you think of people that are good at just tun tou and not fou chum?

Do you think you have learned these properly or are you better at just a couple of them?

I’ve noticed at one of your training session on Saturday, that you guys tun/swallow a lot. Is there a reason? [/B]

Obviously, there are many weakenses amongst many people, being good at only part of a complete system is on one hand a weakness, but on the other hand at least one part done well. I know I have many weaknesses, but what can a poor boy do but stay on the path?

:smiley: :smiley:

Lets not get into the differences between YKM and PM again. Perhaps its just personal style perhaps it is THE style, but until we get together and work it out in physical demonstration, its not worth the effort. Until you show me some patterns and I can judge against what I know from the other YKM players I know, and we compare notes. I don’t like argueing when there is no opportunity for clear understanding at the end, especially when we are so close, and can really gain something.

EAZ

When you drop and deliver Sak Choi, the other hand has to clear the opponents arms, either to the side, when you attack there, or upwards, when you attack centerline, does that make sense?

18

Yum Cha

You are correct, when we get together it will all sorted out.:slight_smile:

im not arguing about any of this, its all abilities when we get down to it! no flames here…:cool:

please dont judge me against other ykm player as im only still young at it! :frowning: there are good and bad in every system!!

I wasnt trying to start anything as i said its my personal opinion on the way i teach and what i know of fighting.:slight_smile:

19

Re: Re: Yum Cha

Originally posted by Yum Cha
[B]

EAZ

When you drop and deliver Sak Choi, the other hand has to clear the opponents arms, either to the side, when you attack there, or upwards, when you attack centerline, does that make sense? [/B]

Yes, thank you.

This is risky in my book though.

EAZ

20

Tactics

EAZ,
Yes, risky. Is there a particular kind of fighting that isn’t risky? <grinning>

Honestly, I know exactly what you mean, and agree it is risky, and needs to be much practiced.

Everyone needs to find what works for them, fits their body type and spirit.

A big guy makes it his own in a way a little man doesn’t.

Also important is the understanding how opponents think, and where they see openings in your position based upon your relative size, speed and attitude. And, how you can manipulate that understanding to advantage.

Strategy and techniques must go hand in hand.