Pei Mei: sinking power for small persons

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

yum cha

True, strategy and technique go hand in hand!

See i favour certain strikes that i find finish a fight quickly and aggressively, so i set up what i want to do. Strategy is another very important factor in a street fight. ALTHOUGH!
In my years of security and door work, i have found strategy works more when the other person isn’t aware, and usually you can finish the person off pretty fast. But when its the opposite, awareness, skill and quick thinking is the key! You have no stratergy if you dont know whats around the corner if you know what i mean? :smiley: FEAR should be used as a positive modivator here and understood how to use this deadly force. This is pure shock power!! Use the adrenilin and fear as your power source, rather not as a bad thing.

have i gone off track here, ive lost what im talking about!

:smiley:

thanks for warm welcome at the park saturday, we should do this more often!:wink:

22

Fear and shock

You make a good point FT,
in fear and shock reactions, your training, not your thinking comes to the forefront. Another good reason to burn it into your body as well as your mind.

Nice seeing you too.

23

subconscious reations

If it aint repetition, it aint subconscious, if it aint subconscious your too slow!

your dead;)

24

Awareness

sorry I don’t understand!
If you are aware how can you be shocked? You practice this shock power by doing repition after repition but how do you practice the stimuli?

How o you practice stategy on a complete stranger?
IMO there is no stagety in a fight, only principles.

I agree that if you have to think in a fight you are going to be slow it is not as if you are sparring, you want to rip the guys head off if you are going to fight.

This is where awarenes comes in I think. In a fight when do you know you have had enough?

25

cloud

totally agree with you!

ok, what im saying is fear is part of shock power. well to me but may not be you. Aware of whats around you, like bins, poles, people, bottles! I never walk down the street unaware of whats around me, sometimes i watch people walking towards me and being aware if they have there hand in their jacket like holding a weapon, anything etc. I try and see and be aware of my suroundings!

The shock is the inital attack and your responce to it, using the easiest and a natural attack where your body can generate power without thought.

Training in sensitvity and 2 man, multiple attackers, free fighting, drills etc for reflexive action!

26

scared vs shocked…

I must take issue on this:

The whole point of self realisation in proper kung fu is to transcend action reaction paradigm, I 'm sure many would agree (yes I know it’s more complicated then that but I’m trying to stay on subject).

If you train like say a Western boxer, or many kung fu schools where you simply apply set combinations, you are merely reacting to a situation as your opponent is. You may become very good, even deadly, and at a much faster pace then the OTHER training method but a) you cap off at certain point, never truely becoming unbeatable as someone will have trained action/reaction sequence 10% better then you b) you are completely off the track of enlightenment through fighting. You simply have become a more efficient animal.

I have seen on this forum that many are aware of 3 levels of fighting training: 1) you react to opponent 2) you are able to follow your opponent 3) you lead opponent.

It all boils down to: when agression appears, usually at a random moment in ones life in whatever form (but certainly including someone who wants to kick your head in), you must transcend reaction and simply act.

This is possible if you have sufficient Shen or refined internal energy, which can only be gained through practice…but not through action reaction training.

Of course, we must practice technics and application of forms etc., but I was taught to be very careful of the trap of fixed seqeances. If they are too internalised they lead you away from martial arts path. (although handy I agree in a practical sense if you haven’t got the Shen, to beat defend oneself.

All of this is of course IMHO.

(FT: tried out your one 1-10 step technic, quite fun and everyoine enjoyed it. Did differnt type of foot movements, then with bridge joined, then random steps in both direction. Much more fun then the way we were doing it before. Thanks.)

27

HI EAZ

You can also attack doing 1-10’s while the guy on the back foot is attacking also. chase each other backwards and forwards, then add zig zag footwork etc.

im glad you liked it!:slight_smile:

we gotta practise forms in order to get techniques,strength, etc but, dont stick to using the moves always in sequences in a fight. you should be able to flow using any moves from any forms at any instance at any fighting range. You must understand what works best for you in different fighting ranges too!

28

Sifu

I don’t care what any body says…Your aight man!:smiley:

We got the package!:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

I’ll catch you on msn tonight or I’ll give you a call.

Take care,

Buby

29

Re: Awareness

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
[B]sorry I don’t understand!
If you are aware how can you be shocked? You practice this shock power by doing repition after repition but how do you practice the stimuli?

How do you practice stategy on a complete stranger?
IMO there is no stagety in a fight, only principles.

I agree that if you have to think in a fight you are going to be slow it is not as if you are sparring, you want to rip the guys head off if you are going to fight.

This is where awarenes comes in I think. In a fight when do you know you have had enough? [/B]

Strategy? I suggest you read Mushashi and Song Shan (?), Book of 5 Rings, and the Art of War. Just to get you started.

Shock power, adrenaline, startle reflex, I suppose these are all related. Surprise is the strategic element. Defensive of offensive. I’m a little confused just exactly what everybody is talking about directly, there seems to be some different interpretations.

Fight or flight reflex from adrenaline rushing through the body is a common physical reaction, controlling it is not so common, and using it to your advantage is ideal.

Combat is more significant than ripping off someones head, sometimes they have two heads, and perhaps a pointed tail. You need to make use of all the resources of your mind and body.

EAZ is talking, I believe, about the emptyness of mind you need for the most efficient execution of your martial art. Japanese call it mind like water.

I and FT (if I read him correctly) suggest that the best way to get beyond the conscious deliberation, is through the exercise of techniques into the subconciousness. Once you have internalised a dozen of more, they begin to breed in your subconciousness, adapt, blend. 10,000 times

You start one combination, and end up finishing another, or jumping to an alternative due to the way things presented themselves. You ad-lib different steps in a pattern because you want to jump further or you cut them out because you want to do the whole thing in a 2metre square. Here you gain that understanding, that goes beyond the conditioned techniques and the understanding.

Soon all techniques become one technique, and all the combinations become one combination, without thought. Does that make sense from your side EAZ? You have to work it out yourself, it comes to different people in different ways.

Strategically, fear, surprise, intimidation, confusion, deception are quite relevant, unless somebody hits you with a pool cue from behind, that is. Not necessarily part of a pattern, but part of combat.

Somebody may have a nice animal theory to go with this too…

30

buby whats the DEAL

Well its about time it got there!

31

Re: Re: Awareness

Originally posted by Yum Cha
[B]

I and FT (if I read him correctly) suggest that the best way to get beyond the conscious deliberation, is through the exercise of techniques into the subconciousness. Once you have internalised a dozen of more, they begin to breed in your subconciousness, adapt, blend. 10,000 times

You start one combination, and end up finishing another, or jumping to an alternative due to the way things presented themselves. You ad-lib different steps in a pattern because you want to jump further or you cut them out because you want to do the whole thing in a 2metre square. Here you gain that understanding, that goes beyond the conditioned techniques and the understanding.

Soon all techniques become one technique, and all the combinations become one combination, without thought. Does that make sense from your side EAZ? You have to work it out yourself, it comes to different people in different ways.

Somebody may have a nice animal theory to go with this too… [/B]

Yes this is in line with what I am taught. Forms must be practiced ceaselessly until internalised, this is called “making the mold” then you “break the mold” by mixing movements.

The principle is also for continuous power generation of 5 elements. In order to maintain maximum energy in fight, you must contantly transform your movements and type of strengh. Thus the link with Yi King.

IMHO as how I have assimilated what I have been taught.

32

interesting statement

Please in your own words what does these books you mention mean?

If emptiness of mind is what you are talking about where does your strategy theory fit in?

You said surprise is the strategic element defensive or offensive.

If you were using the element of surprise is your mind empty?
If you were surprised from someone is your mind empty?

Combat- yes sometimes they may have two heads and a pointy tail or they may have long pointy ears and goofy teeth with four hooves and go ee-oh, ee-oh. What is your point?

I agree with one point though you have the best stategy on deception:eek:

So eaz does that mean you have no two-man drills? how are you careful not to get too’internalised’?
What martial arts path are you talking about?

33

Cloud

I understand what you mean, if your mind is empty, how can it be full of strategic considerations, and it is a fair point. Sounds like a Koan…

If you are curious start with the Book of 5 rings. 5 Rings allows for the emptyness of mind, and how to understand and develop it in the book of Water. There are 4 other books (rings) that look at other aspects. Book of Ground, Water, Fire, Air, etc…

It is only a very little book, you can probably read it in an afternoon, and you could certainly find out if it interests you by scanning it in a book store. It is often kept in the corporate and business strategy section as well as Asian philosophy.

Mind you, it is a japanese viewpoint, and Mushashi (I hope the spelling is correct) was a swordsman, but the principles are very “plural” interpretation.

It is certainly worth a look, I would only do injustice if I tried to paraphrase it here.

34

Re: interesting statement

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
[B]Please in your own words what does these books you mention mean?

If emptiness of mind is what you are talking about where does your strategy theory fit in?

You said surprise is the strategic element defensive or offensive.

If you were using the element of surprise is your mind empty?
If you were surprised from someone is your mind empty?

Combat- yes sometimes they may have two heads and a pointy tail or they may have long pointy ears and goofy teeth with four hooves and go ee-oh, ee-oh. What is your point?

I agree with one point though you have the best stategy on deception:eek:

So eaz does that mean you have no two-man drills? how are you careful not to get too’internalised’?
What martial arts path are you talking about? [/B]

I’m not sure all your comments are directed at me, as I do not beleive I said anything about surprise or deception or strategy per say.

So I answer the last point: you are correct to say that 2 man drills are rare in our school and handled in a particular fashion. While we break apart forms and practice application of each sequence, we do not practice systematically in each class loops of 2 man movements that engrain reflexes. “Breaking the mold” means freeing oneself from causality (very much IMHO this is my conclusion on way I have been taught and could be al least partially false). It takes a great amount of energy to be effortless and free, unthinking in mvement and drilling to many set two man forms regularly puts the practitioner in danger of merely chaining himself to law of causality i.e. he can always be defeated.

So I say yes to not using rational thought when fighting, indeed of no use, and no to use of simple reflex patterns. Patterns are attachments to reality, thus obeying law od cause and effect and ultimately chaining a person to reality. Pretty stadard Buddhisto-taoïst theory.

Link to Yi King: if you even roughly adhere to the previous paragraph, then it is easy to project on to Yi King (although it is most important to get a version with all the traditional comentaries - not just on the hexagrams themselves, but also on cosmologcal creation theory of Yi King.

By the way, a more advanced student of martial arts teased me the other day regarding the “magic square”, which is part of the creation theory of Yi King: he said that there was an actual strategy in martail arts fighting that is VISUALLY represente by this diagram. I have been trying to figure it out even since.

I wonder if FT knows about this seeing as I remember him talking on a previous post about 18 frictions in Pei Mei as “6*3” etc… with someone else.

Does this mean anything to anyone?

35

BAGUA

8 directions are used for attacking and defending, 5 elements are moves nothing special, not magical just a theory of attack and defense again.

Hi EAZ,
Whats your views on 5 elements? do you have a form called ng hung mor?

:slight_smile:

36

Animals

Could any one explain why the mimick or the characteristics of animals?
Could a tiger fight like a crane?
Can the wind act like water?

F.t I believe it is more than just moves;)

Couldn’t someone practice a technique once and it is in thier subconcious? What is the subconcious?

37

cloud one

Hehehe,

well im not going to give away too much! but it is more than what i said…:wink:

38

CLOUD ONE

“Could any one explain why the mimick or the characteristics of animals?”

  • We dont ‘mimick’ an animal we mainifest its spirit and essence.
    Characteristic is obvious, animals are the best natural fighters on the planet… who else has to fight for food and survival on a daily basis?
    Characteristics are simple yet pliable… How does a tiger behave when its wounded and needs to flee?

“Could a tiger fight like a crane?”
-Could a tiger contruct buildings or write novels?
Can a human understand the reasoning a tiger has for stalking its prey? Or a crane standing on one leg to preserve its energy?
Also unfortunatly much as i would LOVE to be really able to fight exactly like a tiger or crane. I neither have four legs or wings… I just have to make do with what i have. Though i do have some aspects that neither of those animals do, can you guess it?

“Can the wind act like water?”
For the real answer to that you would need to consult the wind and water. My theory would still be yes…
Both are formless, both are strong yet both cannot be grasped in a physical form, would that count as acting like?

“Couldn’t someone practice a technique once and it is in thier subconcious?” "
-No
“What is the subconcious?”

  • The level of concious below your current one?
    Seriously your subconcious is your non analyzing mind. Its what you ‘know’ and are not ‘thinking’ about. For a technique to be there it must be part of your physical make up. You can understand the concept and have that at a subconcious level well before that actual technique will be.

Just my theorys on your questions.
Regards.
Jon

39

Hi Eaz! Great thread. I think the “magic square” are the four compass points with you in the middle representing “earth”. As previously mentioned , more modern thinkers use eight compass points. My experience with explaining animal spirit to those that haven’t at least witnessed it is don’t bother.

40

5 elements

this is really easy to understand

center = earth, spleen
top = fire, heart
bottom = water, kidneys
left = wood, liver
right = metal, lung

there is more to 5 elements, it gets deeper!:slight_smile: