5 Element Palm in Pak Mei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi there guys,

It’s been a long time since I’ve posted anything on this forum.

However I have reading some of the posts that have been put on here.

Purely out of interest, who knows or has heard of this: “5 Element Palm form - Ng Hsing Mor Kiew Kuen” in the Pak Mei arts.

Like I said I’ve seen it floated around on here in various posts, and would be interested in anyone who could shed some light on this subject.

I believe that those of us in the Pak Mei Pai, know that the advanced forms are Sup Baa Mor Kiew Kuen & Man Fu Chut Lam. I’m just interested in finding out more information on this other form…

I look forward to hearing from some of you.

2

Dave Stevens :- “Purely out of interest, who knows or has heard of this: “5 Element Palm form - Ng Hsing Mor Kiew Kuen” in the Pak Mei arts.”

Well all I can add is that I too have ‘heard’ of it. As far as I know my teachers teacher knows it, but I have never seen it or know what it is.
Have you seen it? I am under the impression its a bit hush hush for some reason. Inner Inner circle type thing??

Wheres pakmeistudent when you need him? :slight_smile:

Mark S

3

Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau

Well from my understanding of reading the various couplets, poems / songs of Pak Mei Pai, that my Sifu has given me.

The Pak Mei practitioners will know that practising the Tun To Fau Chum is for developing the iron shirt / body and in particular around the ribs… hence the expanding and compressing of the ribcage when prastising.

So from this the Tun To Fau Chum, is cultivating to 4 internal powers of Pak Mei in accordance with the Lohk Geng (6 powers of the body).

To my mind then the “Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)” is taking the internal stage of Pak Mei further. Apparently the Preist / Monk PAK MEI himself, was reputed for having the “Golden Bell Cover”.

So would it be by fusing the 5 elements of the body as one (Jing, Qi, Jin Ye, Xue, Shen - Essence, Energy, Body Fluids, Blood & Spirit) by various Taoist / Buddhist Breathing exercises, this “Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)” is strengthening the Yang Fu (Internal Organs) to be able to withstand strikes executed with internal power.

Thus actually achieveing what could be said to be the “Golden Bell Cover”.

This to me would make sense as to the secrecy of this particular form.

Anyone else have any insights they want to share?

4

Re: Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pakmei
[B]Well from my understanding of reading the various couplets, poems / songs of Pak Mei Pai, that my Sifu has given me.

The Pak Mei practitioners will know that practising the Tun To Fau Chum is for developing the iron shirt / body and in particular around the ribs… hence the expanding and compressing of the ribcage when prastising.

So from this the Tun To Fau Chum, is cultivating to 4 internal powers of Pak Mei in accordance with the Lohk Geng (6 powers of the body).

To my mind then the “Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)” is taking the internal stage of Pak Mei further. Apparently the Preist / Monk PAK MEI himself, was reputed for having the “Golden Bell Cover”.

So would it be by fusing the 5 elements of the body as one (Jing, Qi, Jin Ye, Xue, Shen - Essence, Energy, Body Fluids, Blood & Spirit) by various Taoist / Buddhist Breathing exercises, this “Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)” is strengthening the Yang Fu (Internal Organs) to be able to withstand strikes executed with internal power.

Pak mei-
Actually, all the chinese martial arts are made within the five elements theory. Ask any chinese martial artist or very knowledgeable person. They will tell you all the martial arts are made within the theory of five elemnts.

Five elements doesn’t belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long. It also belongs to Choy Lay Fat.

The origin of all martial arts are Taoist. Thus, the theory of taoist applies to all chinese martial arts. The buddhist is not the orignator of chinese martial arts.

If you search in Yahoo.com, about five elements theory. The japanese karate also has their version of five elements theory. The japanese karate is a derivative of chinese martial arts. Thus, japanese karate also agrees with five elements and tao of yin and yang.

It is the expression of five elements, which is different than all of us. If there is a chinese martial artist here in this forum. I am sure he will agree.

5

PMS : Welcome back.

Mark S

6

Last time I posted I got blasted but Ill give it a try.

Ng Hang Moh or Mo Dik Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung (invincible 5 element sensing bridge power) is the highest form in Bak Mei Kung Fu. CLC did teach a few people but there are few in the world who know it, and even fewer who will share it. Some lines from KwangJau still teach it, and a couple from HK line, I know Chau Fook, Ng Nam Ging and Lau Cheun have passed this on. And I know that Cheung Bing Lum refutes its existence, my friend asked him about it and he walked away. My Sifu Lau Fai teaches this form, I think he has only taught it to three people so far (myself one), and I saw one of Kwan Kwok Faifs students perform this at the Bak Mei gathering last year in KwangJau.

In the beginning of Bak Mei Geng Ging is trained, power coming out in short powerful bursts (like a shotgun). Much higher up is Sai Dong Geng, power coming out in fast continuous pulses (like a machinegun), this is part of what makes up the power of Ng Hang Moh. Both of these powers are internal.

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website http://www.dryqwong.com
Hope it sheds a bit of light,

Kei Lun

7

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website.

He does,but it is concidered the closest guarded set of the

system,and he only has taught a few people to my knowledge.

I’ve heard him call it “Five Elements”.

I’ll call him and ask,I owe him a lunch anyway.

8

I heard Hg Hang moh is a made up form by some of the students of CLC.

I mean, how come some people say their is such a form and some people say nay?

And don’t give me that “only worthy of inner secret” crap. Because, if you think the secret of bak mei is in the amount or the “highest” form you know…well…

Also, i think it would be very conveinent for a sifu to say " i got a form that no other CLC student knows" Hmm…something to think about.

Besides, Bing lum said their is nothing above Mun Fu. Go and check out his website. You don’t have to believe me.

9

Come on guys,
We are a family.

"Ng Hang Moh or Mo Dik Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung (invincible 5 element sensing bridge power) is the highest form in Bak Mei Kung Fu. CLC did teach a few people but there are few in the world who know it, and even fewer who will share it. Some lines from KwangJau still teach it, and a couple from HK line, I know Chau Fook, Ng Nam Ging and Lau Cheun have passed this on. And I know that Cheung Bing Lum refutes its existence, my friend asked him about it and he walked away. My Sifu Lau Fai teaches this form, I think he has only taught it to three people so far (myself one), and I saw one of Kwan Kwok Faifs students perform this at the Bak Mei gathering last year in KwangJau.

In the beginning of Bak Mei Geng Ging is trained, power coming out in short powerful bursts (like a shotgun). Much higher up is Sai Dong Geng, power coming out in fast continuous pulses (like a machinegun), this is part of what makes up the power of Ng Hang Moh. Both of these powers are internal.

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website http://www.dryqwong.com
Hope it sheds a bit of light,"

Ken lui- Perhaps, you mean this.ŒÜs–€
Ng Hong More

Yes. I do heard of it. Ng Hong More ŒÜs–€

Let me get back at you. I will ask Bing Lam and others respectable person.

10

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
[B]Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website.

He does,but it is concidered the closest guarded set of the

system,and he only has taught a few people to my knowledge.

I’ve heard him call it “Five Elements”.

I’ll call him and ask,I owe him a lunch anyway. [/B]

I think you mean this.ŒÜs–€

Now, I understand your language.:smiley:

I will ask some one of the respectable person. Be patient with me.

11

tnwingstun and kei lun

Hi,

Since you guys have seen this form, can you tell me if the form has the usual pak mei strikes that are found in the lower forms or forms like sup batt mor or gau bo tou?

thanks
Garry:)

12

I think that some people that feel the need to quote every word that I have typed out must be feeling slightly insecure.

PMS:
I think that you have completely lost the plot as to my question that I originally posted for discussion.

You quote that the 5 Elements theory isn’t just practised by the Pak Mei Pai. I never said it was in the 1st place.

I have to pick you up on the Japanese 5 Elements I’m afraid.

Although they do practise the 5 Elements, it is quite different to how the Chinese percieve the 5 Elements.

For instance the 5 Elements in relation to the Zang Fu (Internal Organs) the Chinese say that Blood, Body Fluids, Essence, Energy, Spirit, all belong to an individual element.
The Japanese however say that each organ has Essence except the Heart which has Spirit.

Even in regards to the elements it’s slightly different:
Chinese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal & Water.

Japanese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Air & Water.

The Monk PAK MEI, was actually one of the 5 Elders of Shaolin, so the Pak Mei art will have a Buddhist influence such as the 5 Animals (You only have to read the schools couplet to spot the connection here). PAK MEI was reputted to reside at Ermei Shan where he may have learnt his Taoist practises.

I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong. Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

I’m sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!

EVERYONE:

Good post from the majority here, it’s great to be to discuss a subject with impartiality.

Back to the subject of the Ng Hsing / Hong Morr Kiew Kuen. I read the poem / song on the 10 Important Points of Pak Mei, last night that my Sifu gave me.

Towards the end it does actually mention about this form, as a means to enlightenment after having learnt and become skilled in Sup Baa Morr & Man Fu Chut Lam.

This is a very interesting subject indeed… Looking forward to some more posts on this dicussion.

13

Existence of form in Vietnamese lineage

The 5 elements/animals form is present in vietnamese lineage of Pei Mei. It comes after Tiger exits forest. (There are other forms as well that come after Tiger Exits forest).

I have not learnt it or seen it.

As far as I can tell from my research and what I have been told, this form has existed for a long time in PM at least since 1930s as Tsang Hué Bac is said to have practiced it when he left CLC in 1931 and came to Vietnam.

I cannot give any hard evidence for 100% certainty. Some students of CLC did travel to Vietnam between 1930s and 1950s and may have brought it with them. So until this doubt is resolved I remain at 80% certainty that it is authentic form.

However I would go against the theory written here concerning interpretation relating to iron bell.

As previous threads have shown, I to have been taught that 5 elements theory is just a common structure of older Southern schools and is a useful “manual” to pull together allt he threads of any Southern style. Many of these schools’ most advanced forms deal with a name of 5 elements.

I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.

Regards,

EAZ

14

[[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pakmei
[B]I think that some people that feel the need to quote every word that I have typed out must be feeling slightly insecure.

PMS:
I think that you have completely lost the plot as to my question that I originally posted for discussion.

“You quote that the 5 Elements theory isn’t just practised by the Pak Mei Pai. I never said it was in the 1st place.”

Don’t worry. I am not questioning your credibility. I am giving out my opinion.

"I have to pick you up on the Japanese 5 Elements I’m afraid.

Although they do practise the 5 Elements, it is quite different to how the Chinese percieve the 5 Elements."

You don’t have to be afraid. If I don’t have prove. I won’t say anything.

“For instance the 5 Elements in relation to the Zang Fu (Internal Organs) the Chinese say that Blood, Body Fluids, Essence, Energy, Spirit, all belong to an individual element.
The Japanese however say that each organ has Essence except
the Heart which has Spirit.”

No. Five elemnts theory is not only limited to internal organs. It also involves with other things. Again, unless, you have a deep chinese medical knowledge.

Or I have to take my time to write in details. It is indeed very complex theory. I can write five pages of essay on this.

"Even in regards to the elements it’s slightly different:
Chinese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal & Water.

Japanese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Air & Water."

It depends which japanese family. Some family prefers the chinese five elements theory, like aikido.

http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

“The Monk PAK MEI, was actually one of the 5 Elders of Shaolin, so the Pak Mei art will have a Buddhist influence such as the 5 Animals (You only have to read the schools couplet to spot the connection here). PAK MEI was reputted to reside at Ermei Shan where he may have learnt his Taoist practises.”

I never heard of five animals. I do heard of five elements.
There aren’t five animals theory of intrepretation. It doesn’t rhyme with the taoist theory.

There are 12 animals. However, this is zodiac.

All martial arts are based on within few animals.

snake
elephant
tiger
dragon
leopard
crane

forgive me, i can’t remember all the animals.

In the case of PM, we only based on leopard and tiger. We have some snake hands. However, this doesn’t look like a real snake practitioner.

Taoist culture is always in side china. The taoist is creation within China. Buddhist is not. China never has his own religion, except taoist. Other religion is just idol worship. Taoist religion is the strongest root, since chinese civilizatin begins at autumn and spring period.

Three strongest taoist influence in China.

  1. martial arts
  2. philosphy
  3. herbal medicine

That is why all three are one. You can’t say you are martial artist, but you don’t have taoist knowledge and medical practice. It is only recent years. The institutions seperates all three independantly. Eventhough, they seperates the three institutions. The institutions always recommend go back to the original way.

"I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong. Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

I’m sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!"

It is a myth. The buddhist tradition only lasted about 1500 years max. The greatest expansion of buddhism is at sung dynasty. Taoist starts since chinese civilization begins in autumn and spring period. It is about 1000 years earlier than buddhist. Sun Tzu art of war is also created in the same period of Lao Tzu.
Go to search engine. Search Lao tzu. It is more than 2000 years old. Search the history of taoist. Lao tzu is the same period of confucious.

15

five elements theory doesn’t only limits to internal organs. It can have another interpretation as well.

http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

   ELEMENT
      WOOD
      FIRE
      EARTH
   METAL
   WATER

     COLOR
       GREEN
       RED
    YELLOW
  WHITE
    BLUE

     SOUND
    SHOUTING 
  LAUGHING
     SINGING
WEEPING
GROANING

      ODOR
     RANCID
 SCORCHED
  FRAGRANT
ROTTEN
  PUTRID

   EMOTION
     ANGER
       JOY
  SYMPATHY
   GRIEF
     FEAR

    SEASON
     SPRING
   SUMMER
    CENTER
AUTUMN
  WINTER

       TASTE
       SOUR
   BITTER
     SWEET
PUNGENT
    SALTY

   DIRECTION
       EAST
   SOUTH
    CENTER
   WEST
   NORTH

       DEITY
     DRAGON
 SPARROW
    CENTER
   TIGER
   SNAKE

    ORGANS
       LIVER
    HEART
  STOMACH
   LUNGS
 BLADDER

All the chinese martial arts are created and maintained by taoist. Even you are a buddhist. They also apply yin and yang theory in Chi gung. Without yin and yang theory, how do you work on chi gung?

16

Re: Existence of form in Vietnamese lineage

I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.

Regards,

EAZ [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you. However, you shouldn’t say five animals. It will be a joke,if you say it to some chinese medical and martial arts practitioner. There are no five animals in chinese medicine. There is certainly no five animals in martial arts.

Note: I am not chanllege you. I am just telling you something from my good intention.

All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.

There are only five important angle in fighting. When you cover all five angle. You are impenetrable. This is what Pak mei 's five elements means. It is all self-expression. Every martial arts have differnet interpretation of covering up all five angles.

17

PMS

I think you will find this link interesting. The gentleman who this web page belongs too, has done his homework and was even kind enough to list some of his resources.

Here’s the link:
http://www.blacktaoist.com/Martial%20Arts%20History%20Part2.html

Buby

18

Somewhere along the line of this conversation it seems 5 Animals and 5 Elements got confused. These are 2 entirely seperate entities.

19

Where to begin…

First off, interesting thread when in comes to the 5 Elements and 5 Animals.

Before I address those points, I would like to say that there are lots of mixed and intervined material. People have a tendency to selectively present what is perceived to be “useful” material to build their cases. The link that belongs to Black Taoist would have been a great read if not for his overly racial concerns. I am sorry eventhough I understand the Afro race is a great race and might possibly be one of the earilest races (hence first civilized), those “evidences” presented are somewhat circumstancial and far fatched. While there is a sect of Taoism called Mao Shan (lance/grass Mountain) that practices black magic/voodoo/shamanism/ whatever you want to label it, there is no prove that it derived from African culture. Is Shamanism belongs to one race only? Remember all human brains are wired the same way even thousands of years ago.

Having that out of the way we shall first look at 5 Elements Theory (5ET). Like the Ying/Yang theory, it is so old that no one really knows who came up with the 5ET. Some believe that it was the Mohists (kind of militant Confucians) who created this. It has been for ages considered as a Taoism teaching. All we can say is that 5ET and Taoism are in Chinese as oxygen is in the blood. Without oxygen the blood doesn’t has a purpose. Without the blood, oxygen would fullfill itself neither. All these Ying/Yang, 5ET and Taoism are the worldview of Chinese people. Those are significant component to Chinese self indentity. I can not speak for others but as a Chinese person, I can not and will not have that self indentity be taken away or be bereaved off by anyone.

Japan have modeled after China for a long time. Only since the 1800s that the tide has changed. We can see that the 5ET also have gone through a face lift by the Japanese who are into Buddhism more so than the Chinese. Buddhist’s Earth, Water, Wind/Air, Fire ( the four great elements which are also the Titans in Greek) plus Wood became their version of 5ET. The 2 sets of Elements are based on different worldviews. We have to distingush them or we can argue till the end of time. It’s not a matter of which WV is better it is how we desire to preceive our surrounding and make sense out off an otherwise mysterious, chaotic, and hostile enviroment. A stranger becomes your friend because you get to know him and work with him. With the 5ET WV, we get to know our stanger (nature) as our friend. That is all.

The Shaolin 5 Animals debate was covered a while ago along with the 5ET. IMHO, there are no direct correlation between them. So no need to link them together. One thing of note is that early Buddhist culture like its parent Hindu culture used animals to convey important abstract concepts such as Ying/Yang. Dragon and snake (cobra) convey the idea of Ying/Yang - the hardness and suppleness of the body. Tiger and Leopard are more Tibetant and Chinese (Taoism) symbols than Indian (Hindu/Buddhist). Quite a few of the dieties in both Tibet and China have tigers and leopard as their rides. These animals express the idea of power/strength (of fear and ferocity) as a vehicle of the devine. Crane is definitely a Taoism thing though. So again there are blending going on.

Taosit 5 Animals are quite different form the Shaolin. Again they serve a different purpose. I won’t cover them unless there is an interest in them.

I believe that are reasons behind things. To see what you wanted to see is worst than being blind. So keep an open mind and work more.

I was going to address the Buddhist and Taoist of Bak Mei issue. But it lunch time for me. So that will have to wait. :smiley:

Mantis108

20

5 elements link with 5 animals

I am intrigued that no one here has been taught that there is a link between the two.

We all agree that 5 elements is root of Taoist knowledge. (see Pak Mei Students classic correspondences between colours organs weather ets as outlined in commentary in Yi King.

We all agree that martial arts is laced with Taoist theory hence 5 elements.

Is is not possible to infer that 5 animals of Shaolin an addition or mix of one theory/ tradition into 5 elements classical taosit theory?

It would be an incredible coicidence that there are 5 animals in Shaolin and 5 elements that have nothing to do with eachother, no?

Without getting into all the detail I have been taught, I outline the following for your consideration:

There is theory of mutation creation descrtruction in 5 animals based on corresponding elements.

The animals also are parralleled to big yang, small yang, neutral, small yin and big yin.

Theory of fighting is integrated rather sealessly into this.

Why is it that PM is Tiger and Leopard specialty, Wing Chun Crane Snake etc…and that these animals corresponds to stances attitudes and ways of fighting COMPLETELY correhent with these two fighting systems (and other styles too but I do not know enough about them )?

I really am surprised again that no one else here considers there is a link between the two. It is so coherent, so structured in the way I have been taught. I will not debate this though any longer and quietly slide into the mists of anonymity instead of confronting potentially headon visions.

That being said I do not think the theories here are exclusive. It is possible to have more than one interpretation of 5 elements such as the one mentioned by Pak Mei student

(I am not disputing however the exact terminology of the PM form either animal or element)

EAZ