Two general tendencies in Pak Mei practice in the world

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi,

I was very interested by an element of a thread on Kung Fu Online. A certain Yum Cha said “Vietnamese PM, Guangzhou PM and YKM are the closest to each other. I think that perhaps had to do with the early versus the later students of CLC. What you reckon?”

I practice VN lineage Pei Mei and have visited 3 schools of Pak Mei (Pei Mei) originating apparently from lineages that come from Hong Kong. These lineages did not have all the forms I was taught, and in general had less forms. The exception was either the Eagle Claw form which one Pak Mei school taught or the Dragon crossing bridge… (Lung Mun Bic Da I think, I don’t have my notes handy. )-these 2 forms are absent from Vietnam Pei Mei.

Anyways, based on the information on Pei Mei web sites and conversations with different lineages, I think there is some ring of truth in Yum Cha’s hypothesis.

I notice that:
a. HK schools have much less forms and 2 forms never heard of in Guagnzhou/Vietnam schools- hereafter refered to as “non HK” (I know nothing of YKM and never heard of it until a few weeks ago.)

b. HK schools practice all movements nearly standing up and stance is always very closed. The “non HK” practice forms in much lower stances (fighting is of course much higher); also, although there is constant usage of Rising Sinking Swallow Spitting principle, it is (relatively speaking for a Southern style) more open.

c. The HK schools make no theoretical usage of 5 animal theory. They simply state that Tiger and Leopard are animals that Pak Mei is based on. Non HK schools apprently have, on altar of Pei Mei the inscription regarding 5 animals and make active use of this Shaolin inspired theory(he practiced dragon, snake and crane and mastered tiger and leopard…). Although 1 HK origin school mentions 5 animals, it is only in passing and apparently it is not really a part of curriculum.

  • As a side note, the 5 animals clearly belonging to Shaolin / buddhiste martial arts, this must be taken into consideration when discussing the “is Pei Mei Taoiste or Buddhist?” question. As Taoist martial arts do not make any use of animals (discounting certainCHi Kung exercices bu these are not 5 animals of Shaolin) this adds to the puzzle does it not?-

Anyways, as it stands now, I sway in favour of the opinion that there is a clear difference between post 1949 Chung Ly Chuyen (CLC)in Honk Kong and pre 1949 CLC. Why, and what this difference means however is not altogether clear.

Could someone constructively disprove this theory or perhaps add more substance?

(Let it be clear that my only desire is to understand, not to judge. I do not want to fall into sterile discussions regarding “orignal Pak Mei”, “inner student this” or “direct lineage that”. I only wish to enlarge my understanding to better my practice).

All the best,

EAZ

2

It is very interesting that different sources have different ‘syllabus’ for learning ‘Pak Mei’.
Here’s mine in case anyone’s interested:
Fistforms:

  • (Lung Ying Ma Bo Chung Chui)
  • (Lung Ying Sup Luk Dong)
  • (Lung Ying Sam Tong Gwo Kiu)
  • Pak Mei Jik Bo
  • Pak Mei Gou Bo Toui
  • Pak Mei Man Fu (tranlsated by my teacher as ‘Fierce Tiger steps’
  • (Lung Ying Mor Kiu)
  • Pak Mei 18 Deflect Palm
  • Pak Mei Man Fu Chut Lum (translated as above as ‘Fierce Tiger Comes out of Forest’

This fusion of Pak Mei and Lung Ying seems to be the ‘norm’ in the UK, at least from Ho Bun Un lineage. I notice that the Netherlands branch is also similar in its way.
This all from Sifu who were taught by CLC.
The Lung Ying Jing Jung teachers here say that second generation Lung Ying Sifu (from CLC & LYG) teaches as above but third generation (mostly Lam family) teach only Lung Ying, and having seen their classes there is definitely no Pak Mei influence.

There you go, my tuppence from the UK.

Mark

3

san you cantonese?how do you hoi tee in sap batt mor quil?its simple enough if you know how?and also how many movements it meng fu chut lam?simple enough if you know how many? :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

4

EAZ and Sanji

Greetings,

If you look carefully at CLC’s students, you will see that each was taught according to his own ablility. Cheung Lai Chuan was known to change and refine the Bai Mei he taught as he himself learned more, or the students needs changed.

There is also the trust element. How well did he trust each student? (i.e. teaching the more advanced concepts)

You might also ask Fiercest Tiger or Tnwingtsun also.

This is just an opinion, not fact. No fighting Sui-Few… :smiley:

Charles

5

Sui-fuw

1)No I am not Cantonese
2)I don’t know I haven’t learn either yet.

Now its my turn.
1)Who are you?
2)What do you study or teach?
3)What is Hoi tee? (we don’t use an awful lot of the terminology, just learn what we are taught, how we are taught it.) I haven’t come across this, or if I have i know it under a different term.

Mark

6

and yet…

Yes there are different forms in different branches of the school. This is relatively a minor concern, as long as theory is respected. Most importantly however IMHO is the fact that many schools practice all movements from a virtually standing position (Chatanooga school, Ly man Tak students, even NY Kwong a bit as well)and very closed guard keeping shoulders rolled forward 100% of time etc. and other schools such as in Vietnam and the GuangShou school from what I can ascertain on the web site, where stances are much lower …

7

there is no Hoi Tee in SipBatmo.

8

san,then why speak for the uk pak mei?sorry if i sound abrupt
:slight_smile:

shaolin masterb@tor,there is “hoi tee” in every form,it means “to open” the particular form you toss whip,what kind of k.f do you learn,is it to lick your si-fu’s chochlate star fish,you shirt lifter? :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: sorry your just sh!t not to know this.

9

of course…

10

How are they different?

Hello,

I do both Lung Ying and Bak Mei. I have personally found (up to this point in my evolution within these arts) that;

Bak Mei - less rooting - higher stance - faster (and definatly fewer)techniques, more focused, more “external” More “fierce” and less compassionate. Better suited to thin, smaller body types.

Lung Ying - more powerful and rooted, gliding, not as fast, more technique, more “internal”. More compassionate, less fierce (“gentle in manner, resolute in execution” - take note nonbelievers!). Better suited to heavier (yes…like me), taller body types.

If as someone above mentioned, that the “trend” is to merge these two arts, then what is Bak Mei contributing to Lung Ying (I would agree that Gow Bo Toy at least is unique to Bak Mei, and an excellent contribution)?!?

Perhaps these arts appeal to different persons based on a specific body type / mental attitude. I don’t know…maybe, maybe not!

Cheers!

11

MIX IT BOTH TOGETHER

you have something like ykm! fierce, fast, rooted, internal and external do or die… hahaha just kidding :stuck_out_tongue:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

12

EAZ : I think I know you, a fellow Vietnamese Pak Mei practitioner.

If you are who I think you are then you will remember that in our school we don’t subscribe to the 5 animal theory in relation to the forms. However we do link the various parts of the “ideal” body postures to different animals. Also we have less forms than the other Vietnamese Pak Mei. No “Lin Yip Che Kwai” (Lotus leaf covers turtle), a typical Vietnamese Pak Mei/Hung Gar form :slight_smile:

13

EAZ

Hi,
Thanks for the thread, i’m not pushing any agenda, just observing, like yourself.

Most people will agree that Cheung Lai Cheun learned 4 patterns at the temple, possibly 5. The rest of the style came from other experiences.

Feldor makes an accurate statement as well.

Higher and lower stances… Well, that is a personal favourite topic of mine, being a big Gwai Lo. Look for the bald guy on my website.

Sifu says you train the low stances when you are young, and as you get older, you rise up, due to your physical limitations. (Taught by an old man?) LIkewise, slight fellows get pointed in one direction, whereas the stout get pointed in another, but they both come together in the end.

I’ve also heard people say, you train low for strong legs, but fight high. Likewise I’ve heard that people only fight high because they aren’t strong enough to fight low…it goes around and around.

Personally, when I fight, I change. Sometimes high, then low to confuse or draw in an opponent, and to rest. Low stances have more stored energy to release. If you can’t move, than the lowest, strongest stance won’t serve you properly. IMHO. Kickboxers don’t always know what to make of low stances and get sucked in…

Ao Qin
Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yew Gwai were close friends, cousins I believe, they tried their luck together as young men across Guangzhou.

My personal opinion is that Pak Mei is an overlay that can accommodate any particular style, once you understand it.

First you learn the pearls, then you learn to string the pearls, than you learn to change the string. Lung Ying, Lei Gar, Hung Gar, whatever, they are the pearls. Pak Mei is the string. Does that make sense to anybody but me?

Language is a barrier, I don’t know all the Chinese sayings, poems, discriptions, etc. I can barely speak with my Sifu, so I can’t offer the wisdom of the ancients, only my personal viewpoint. One thing I can tell you for fact, no tongue fu or on-line banter will teach you more than an afternoon of hard training. :wink:

14

ok lets discuss :

  1. What did CLC learn from Juk Fat Wan ?
  2. What is the hypothetical date of existance of BM (ie based on 5 elders legend)
  3. What components of the other arts did CLC incorporate?
  4. What did CLC “make up” and what did he “pass on”

…

15

Sui-fuw asks “san,then why speak for the uk pak mei?sorry if i sound abrupt”

I speak sir, for myself. However I’m certain that what I have said would not offend my teacher nor his. I was simply entereing into a forum conversation, noting my experiences, nothing more, nothing less.
I will point out though that I am not a beginner in the martial arts, I would consider myself a beginner in Pak Mei at this stage but I have been training in various systems for the last 18 years.

:slight_smile: I accept your apology.
Still you have not answered the questions sir.

Mark

16

To Canonfist

Yes, I do remember you as well. Nice to hear from you.

I confrim that when we discussed last, we determined together that (of interest maybe for other practicioners):

  1. There are already differences within Vietnamese Pei Mei branches.
  2. We both speak of animals in relation to parts of the boby; (many other schools do I think)
  3. Yes, the notion of 5 animals is more developed in our lineage, however, I hope that you do not think that the whole theory of my lineage rests upon this. This is an aspect, no more. It is probably me who puts too much importance on this, not my lineage.
  4. Lotus form is a clear add on in Vietnam and does not bring anything new to style and thus I was taught it but more as a formality than anything else
  5. We both have “four horses charging” form, which apparently is only in Vietnam. DO you know who is responsible for integrating this form first? Also it is a very pleasant form…

Questions
a. Tang Hué Bac died at a very young age, 52 in 1956, do yu know why?
b. do you know any wooden dummy technics? (I think I have picture of Tai Chek Cam practicing against wooden dummy…)
c. do you have Ly Kinh exercices ?

All the best.

17

AoQin: says :-
Bak Mei - less rooting - higher stance - faster Ao(and definatly fewer)techniques, more focused, more “external” More “fierce” and less compassionate. Better suited to thin, smaller body types.

Lung Ying - more powerful and rooted, gliding, not as fast, more technique, more “internal”. More compassionate, less fierce (“gentle in manner, resolute in execution” - take note nonbelievers!). Better suited to heavier (yes…like me), taller body types.

I couldn’t disagree more. Isn’t that odd?!
There seem to me to be far more Toi Sau (sp?) techniques in Pak Mei than in Lung Ying where there are far more Chung Chui, three punch techniques. After all whats the first thing learnt in Lung Ying, Ma Bo Chung Chui - step in and continuous punching! Thats hardly ‘more compassionate’.

AoQin: If as someone above mentioned, that the “trend” is to merge these two arts, then what is Bak Mei contributing to Lung Ying (I would agree that Gow Bo Toy at least is unique to Bak Mei, and an excellent contribution)?!?

That ‘someone’ was me and I didn’t say ‘trend’.
Please read the post again.
I would say that Jik Bo as well as Gou Bo Tui as well as Man Fu is unique to Pak Mei.
Merging is not quite the right word. Please check the post again sir, I am not saying whats what, just commeting on what I have seen.

Yum Cha: First you learn the pearls, then you learn to string the pearls, than you learn to change the string. Lung Ying, Lei Gar, Hung Gar, whatever, they are the pearls. Pak Mei is the string. Does that make sense to anybody but me?

That makes perfect sense to me, especially after experinec of other systems and then pearning Pak Mei, it has indeed ‘strung’ things together.
Good post sir.

Mark

18

i understand,san wait till pak-mei can’t offer anymore then say its the string cause after sip batt mor to meng fu chut lam,different universe.
hope you find what your searching for :slight_smile:

19

sui-fuw: san wait till pak-mei can’t offer anymore then say its the string cause after sip batt mor to meng fu chut lam,different universe.

I’ll let you know when I get there :slight_smile:

Mark

20

Yum Cha

Kind of like cooking Tofu. It take on the flavor of whatever you cook with it… :smiley: